Canonfire!

Mon Feb 17, 2014 1:02 pm Old Critters to D&D3X

I was thinking about all the weird types that could become PCs or could just be useful NPCs (cohorts and the like). The D&D 3.5 Monster Manual doesn't seem to have the following:

Brownies
Bullywugs (found in the Vast Swamp and the Hool Marshes)
Firenewts (Sea of Dust)
Gibberlings (Suss Forest)
Jermlaine (Sea of Dust)
Norkers (Bone March)
Orogs (everywhere, particularly Iuz)
Xvarts (Bone March)

And what about the Peryton?!

Are they in MM II or MM III? I read somewhere that MM III was mostly Eberron stuff.

I have seen the Norker in one of the Living Greyhawk Journals, but it was D&D 3.0 (before every racial stat bonus/penalty had to be +2 lest someone not get/avoid a +/- 1 for the modifier).

Mon Feb 17, 2014 7:33 pm

Funny that you mention bullywugs. I am using them, right now, for my Pathhawk/Greyfinder campaign. bullywugare mentione in Monsterf of Faerun 3.0E, and for 3.5E you will need the 3.5E conversion/web-enhancement file for the 3.0e Monsters of Faerun book. Here is the info:

Mon Feb 17, 2014 7:49 pm

As to the Peryton, Gibberling, and Firenewt, they are also in Monsters of Faerun, and any notable changes/updates to them will also be in the Monsters of Faerun/Player’s Guide to Faerun 3.5E Web Enhancement/Update. The Jermlaine is in the Monster Manual II 3.0; and there is a 3.5E web enhancement/update for that as well.

From Wikipedia:

Wed Feb 19, 2014 1:04 pm

Thu Feb 20, 2014 3:41 am

Fri Feb 21, 2014 4:28 pm

Sat Feb 22, 2014 2:08 am

When I said "stats", I should have said ability stats: Str, Int, etc. 1E books just don't tell you about those things. Instead they will say something like "For every 20 of these critters, there is a leader who will have 12+ hit points and be +1 on damage.", or something similar. No ability stats.

2E actually does have some information, but you won't find it in any monster book. It is "hiding" in The Complete Book of Humanoids. The modifiers there are minimal for 2E, and do little to represent bullywugs. Heck, kobolds are -1 Str and Con. That's it. Apparently kobolds are just as charming as anyone, drinking their tea pinky out and everything. Razz

The main problem with that book is that it didn't do enough, but then the reason for that is to stat the humanoids out to be PCs, in which case they apparently wanted them to have ability modifiers roughly comparable to those for the PHB races; at least for the medium and small humanoids. The bigger things, like ogres and minotaurs, do have +/- 2 modifiers. Some of the smaller races do as well, but it will usually only be for one stat, and it will usually be counter to +1 bonuses in two other stats.

3.X has such seemingly drastic modifiers because of the way ability score modifiers were completely revamped. Having a slightly above average ability scores actually means something in 3.X. The whole point of the +/-2 modifiers (or quantities thereof) is not to have slight variance, but to have recognizable variance. If one departs from that, there is little or no notable variance (which is somewhat boring). I have grown to like it, but it might not be for everyone. It definitely seems drastic at face value, but in-game it really isn't. And so I would stick with increments of 2 in 3.X, as then they are actually representative of something, one way or the other.
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Sat Feb 22, 2014 6:38 am

Hi,

I found it always complex to covert older monster, but there is the creature catalog that has converted many older monster and also from obscure sources. Maybe it can give you a hand with some of them.

Link: http://creaturecatalog.enworld.org/

Thu Feb 27, 2014 3:08 pm

http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=14882&page=4

Fri Feb 28, 2014 1:58 am

The leveling up and aging bits are as they are to represent minimal differences between individual of *the same type*, which is sensible. The +2 bonuses are meant to be immediate affects for the things that have the most impact in the game, such as chance to hit, damage bonus, bonus hit points, AC bonus, missile attack bonus, skill usage bonus, saving throws, and so on. That all goes to establishing the baseline for things. Everything you listed messes with the baseline only minimally, by design.

Basically, they made the races a bit less like a boy band, meaning they are not just about exactly the same and only have cosmetic differences. The differences are much less cosmetic in 3.X, even among races which are seemingly similar. Compare orcs and hobgoblins in Pathfinder:

Orcs
Stats: +4 Str, -2 Int, -2 Wis, -2 Cha
Other: darkvision 60', Ferocity (fights on at negative hit points, but dies at negative hit point total = Con), Light Sensitivity (-1 to hit in bright light and on Perception checks), weapon familiarity (knows how to use "orc" weapons); tend toward less training and so are more often Warriors than they are Fighters.

Hobgoblins
Stats: +2 Dex, +2 Con
Other: Darkvision 60', Sneaky(+4 on Stealth); tend toward more training and so are usually Fighters.

Orcs are savage ferocity incarnate; hobgoblins skilled killers. Orcs will rush you and bash your face in. Hobgoblins will take a more tactical approach (and there might just be one sneaking up to stab you in the back too). Both are very dangerous, but for completely different reasons *rules-wise*. The "Holy Grail" for me is *noticeable* crunch that represents fluff. 3.X has it, and you will definitely see it manifest in every game you play. Such a definitive in-game difference between orcs and hobgoblins is not present in 1e or even 2e, even if using the 2e Complete Book of Humanoids:

Orcs
Stats: +1 Str, -2 Cha
Other: mining skills 35%, infravision 60', -1 to hit in bright light/sunlight,

Hobgoblins
Stats: -1 Cha
Other: mining sklills 40%, infravsion 60', +1 to be hit by dwarves.

In a game system where stats between 10-14 count for much of nothing, and Cha is about as useless as a stat can be, orcs and hobgoblins might as well be humans with face paint. Sure, there will be an in-game effect...if there is a contest to see who can carry more weight or to see who can get better initial reactions with NPCs, but when fighting them (which is what you will be doing) there will be no difference. As a 1e/2e DM, you might as well say "You are fighting ten standard humanoids. Yes, the ones with 1HD, AC 6, and one Attack that does 1d8 damage. They have (insert color of choice here) skin, and are therefore (choose the name corresponding to the color: orcs, hobgoblins,etc.)."

There is a reason I grew to like using bugbears and gnolls when playing 1e/2e, and that is because they are noticeably different from orcs/hobgoblins, and I don't just mean in appearance. In 1e/2e, to get into real differences you have to change Size class usually. I think it is more than a bit of a failure if somebody will ever say "Ahah! See there? Yeah, *that* right there. *That* freak occurrence is the one instance in the game where you can blatantly tell the difference between an orc and a hobgoblin." Nobody will be saying that when playing 3.X. I like how the differences are worked into the system itself, and the role-playing serves to further enhance what is already there. Then you have everything.

Hmmm. Now I kind of want to throw some orcs and hobgoblins into my current Pathhawk/Greyfinder game. Happy

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Thu Mar 13, 2014 11:26 am

My beef is that they ignored 20+ years of precedent. In AD&D1, hobgoblins averaged 15 STR and orcs only averaged 12 STR. Now, all of a sudden, the orcs average 17 STR and the hobgoblins only have 13 STR. Bogus. Oh well.

Mon Mar 24, 2014 2:52 pm

Another example of the tyranny of even numbers: Wood Elves are -2 INT. I can see -1 INT, but -2 INT is a but much.

Mon Mar 24, 2014 5:37 pm

Average Wood Elf stats;

Str: 11-12, Dex: 11-12, Con: 8-9, Int: 8-9, Wis 10-11, Cha: 10-11

Those stats are somehow egregiously "off"?

I think you are fixating too much on the numbers, rather on what the numbers actually mean in terms of the rules. Wood elves are not as well educated, so on average they will have a -1 penalty on Intelligence-related skill checks and earn -1 skill point per level (to a minimum of 1). And "Wizard" is not exactly a class they will favor, but there's nothing stopping them for being clerics, druids, or sorcerers. That is all it means. Besides, they get +2 on Strength and Dexterity, both of which stats are used much more often in the game (and more proactively and to greater effect) than Intelligence, meaning Wood Elves are coming out way ahead on the deal.
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Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:05 pm