Signup
Welcome to... Canonfire! World of GreyhawK
Features
Postcards from the Flanaess
Adventures
in Greyhawk
Cities of
Oerth
Deadly
Denizens
Jason Zavoda Presents
The Gord Novels
Greyhawk Wiki
Canonfire :: View topic - Gradsul vs. Niole Dra
Canonfire Forum Index -> World of Greyhawk Discussion
Gradsul vs. Niole Dra
Author Message
Journeyman Greytalker

Joined: Feb 01, 2005
Posts: 214
From: Columbus, Ohio

Send private message
Sun Aug 11, 2024 5:56 am  
Gradsul vs. Niole Dra

Why is the center of commerce (Gradsul) a much larger metropolis than Niole Dra not the Seat of Government for Keoland? The population of Gradsul is also larger, and the merchant fleets (the heart of foreign trade) are located there.

What is the advantage of governing the nation's money from long distance?

Then there's the entry point for most visiting dignitaries. Why travel away from the center of business to Niole Dra?

It seems that the central government in Keoland should have been relocated to Gradsul long ago.

Thots?

----

Side discussion: Is there any village or town mentioned as existing across the Sheldomar River from Niole Dra in the Duchy of Ulek? A bridge, barge, or boat fairy system should already be in place. The elves of the Silverwood must do some business with Niole Dra, right? Anna's map indicates roads leading to this location.

Thots?

Please and thank you![/b]
Apprentice Greytalker

Joined: Nov 04, 2021
Posts: 20


Send private message
Sun Aug 11, 2024 7:04 am  
Re: Gradsul vs. Niole Dra

Skech wrote:
Why is the center of commerce (Gradsul) a much larger metropolis than Niole Dra not the Seat of Government for Keoland? The population of Gradsul is also larger, and the merchant fleets (the heart of foreign trade) are located there.


It's often like that in real life. NYC isn't the capitol of it's own state, much less the USA. A quick check of wikipedia shows that only two of the 5 largest cities in the world are national capitols. Governmental functionality isn't related to local population size.
Master Greytalker

Joined: Jun 29, 2001
Posts: 766
From: Bronx, NY

Send private message
Sun Aug 11, 2024 7:21 am  

From an LGG perspective, Keoland is divided between three power groups: the Suel House Rhola, the Suel House Neheli, and the Keogh Clans. Except for one early and the current king, all of the kings of Keoland have come from House Rhola or House Neheli.

Gradsul is the stronghold of House Rhola.
Obviously, no king of House Neheli is going to want to set up shop in the stronghold of their rivals.

Niole Dra was founded by House Neheli, but they gave it up as the capital and removed themselves north to Dorlin when the kingdom was founded.

In addition to being about halfway between the Rhola and Neheli lands, Niole Dra is also located conveniently close to the Keogh lands. The Keogh generally serve as the kingmakers in the elections for new kings. That makes it a reasonably secure place for the kings of House Rhola to hang out.

As for governing, Keoland is not a centralized monarchy. It is a loose federation with a rather limited, almost nominal, king as head of state. Each of the main nobles runs their own provinces. This is enhanced by the participation of certain non-noble representatives in the Court of the Land, who are primarily major guild masters. None of them would want a king of either House using the capital to interfere with their local affairs. Keeping the government in Niole Dra ensures that.

As for visiting diplomats, where are they coming from?
Baklunish diplomats are coming from the north. It is unlikely they would travel all the way down the Velverdyva River, go to Greyhawk, past the Slave Lords of the Pomarj, all the way to Gradsul, and then back up the Sheldomar River.
Furyondian and Velunese diplomats will likely skip that as well and just go overland from the Fals River to the Sheldomar River.
Nyrondian diplomats have little reason to be concerned with Keoland.
Great Kingdom, Ahlissan, and Iron League diplomats are the only ones who would routinely use the Azure Sea route, and they would barely be more regular than Nyrondian diplomats as there is simply not that much to coordinate with Keoland. Perhaps an alliance against the Scarlet Brotherhood post-Wars, but that is about it. For them, bypassing outer cities to get to the capital would be expected, as Rauxes is far from the coast, and the political might of the outer provinces of the Great Kingdom was always considerable.

As for a settlement across the river from Niole Dra, I am sure one exists. Most settlements on rivers find a way to spread to both banks.
Adept Greytalker

Joined: Apr 11, 2009
Posts: 386
From: New York City

Send private message
Sun Aug 11, 2024 12:58 pm  

National capitals are usually the area from which a region can most easily be controlled from, and the idea that the capital is a major city is a fairly recent one. For example, English Kings often ruled from Winchester, far from the commercial hub that was medieval London. Most wealth was also in the form of land and extraction industries, thus if control of these resources was deemed essential, a capital would be located in an area to dominate them, whereas controlling international trade was considered a comparatively low priority.

Niola Dra is conveniently located in the center of Keoland and the Sheldomar Valley as a whole. As a locus for exerting political control, it is well-cited, even if not the best location to participate in foreign trade. Rel Mord is somewhat the same, as are Chendl and Rauxes. In fact, none of the major powers' capitals are major port or trading cities.
Journeyman Greytalker

Joined: Feb 01, 2005
Posts: 214
From: Columbus, Ohio

Send private message
Tue Aug 13, 2024 4:46 am  

Samwise,

Your recent post regarding Keoland's capital sparked a need for more info on my part.

1. Is there any specificity on who the Keoghs are and how their power influences governing?

2. To what extent is the rivalry between the Neheli and Rholas? Open brawls when encountered (Montagues and Capulets), or colorful name-calling? Do they hate, tolerate, or easily socialize with each other? How bad is it? Is the degree of their dislike mostly real or inflated and sensationalized by the common man's understanding?

These would make great articles.
Please and thank you,
Skech
Journeyman Greytalker

Joined: Feb 01, 2005
Posts: 214
From: Columbus, Ohio

Send private message
Tue Aug 13, 2024 4:47 am  

My thanks to everyone for sharing their insights. I have much to reconsider at this point.
Master Greytalker

Joined: Jun 29, 2001
Posts: 766
From: Bronx, NY

Send private message
Tue Aug 13, 2024 6:11 pm  

Skech wrote:
Samwise,

Your recent post regarding Keoland's capital sparked a need for more info on my part.

1. Is there any specificity on who the Keoghs are and how their power influences governing?


The Keogh are the first and strongest Oeridian tribal group that entered the Sheldomar and formed the Kingdom of Keoland with them.
Keoland has an elective monarchy like most early Germanic nations following the fall of the Roman Empire in the west, though like them the position is limited to individuals of certain families, namely the Rhola and Neheli. A single Keogh, Mandros the Oeridian, was elected during the early years. No one else outside those families was elected until Kimbertos, and that under a legal fiction of him being a Rhola by ancestral marriage.
Because the Rhola and Neheli are of roughly equal strength in the Court of the Land, the Keogh descended and allied nobles and commoners are the effective kingmakers, depending on which candidate they side with during the election.

Quote:
2. To what extent is the rivalry between the Neheli and Rholas? Open brawls when encountered (Montagues and Capulets), or colorful name-calling? Do they hate, tolerate, or easily socialize with each other? How bad is it? Is the degree of their dislike mostly real or inflated and sensationalized by the common man's understanding?


It depends. The general default is a cool rivalry.
Due to history and circumstances, it takes a lot for it to escalate to outright hostility. The first time it got that bad Mandros wound up as king, and the second time Kimbertos wound up as king, and neither wants to continue with such a disturbing situation.
They will no doubt make snide comments in court and at parties, spread nasty rumors and stories, scheme to foil each others grandiose political plans, fail to support political ambitions even if it impairs their own, but they are very much locked in a "hang together or hang separately" relationship when things get truly ugly.

Quote:
These would make great articles.
Please and thank you,
Skech


I would need to heavily coordinate with Gary Holian for greater detail, but that is a basic overview.

I am glad you like the information.
You are quite welcome.
Journeyman Greytalker

Joined: Nov 11, 2003
Posts: 163
From: The Nexus

Send private message
Tue Aug 20, 2024 7:04 pm  

tarelton wrote:
National capitals are usually the area from which a region can most easily be controlled from, and the idea that the capital is a major city is a fairly recent one. For example, English Kings often ruled from Winchester, far from the commercial hub that was medieval London. Most wealth was also in the form of land and extraction industries, thus if control of these resources was deemed essential, a capital would be located in an area to dominate them, whereas controlling international trade was considered a comparatively low priority.

Niola Dra is conveniently located in the center of Keoland and the Sheldomar Valley as a whole. As a locus for exerting political control, it is well-cited, even if not the best location to participate in foreign trade. Rel Mord is somewhat the same, as are Chendl and Rauxes. In fact, none of the major powers' capitals are major port or trading cities.


This is partly my feeling as to why Niole Dra remains the capital. It is rather centralized allowing easier access for the Court of the Land to meet, and also for trade from the western Sheldomar.

In England, Westchester was Alfred the Great's capital because it was the capital of Wessex. London was in lands controlled by the Danes at that point. by the time of the Conquest, William the Conqueror had to pacify England after the Battle of Hastings, and London was the ideal place to do that, so he built the Tower which became his palace.

My feeling is the Neheli's built Niole Dra in that location for other reasons, magically related. They didn't give up Niole Dra so much as withdraw their obvious control and interest for the sake of preserving other, hidden benefits to the city. It is built on top of older, more ancient cities which is common in the real world.

Speaking of New York, the reason that is not our capital is because of rivalries between the Northern and Southern colonies. It rotated between NY and Philadelphia for awhile but the decision was made to create a new city specifically to be our capital. Maryland and Virginia donated land (Virginia later reclaimed it ... modern Alexandria) to be the District of Columbia.
Journeyman Greytalker

Joined: Nov 11, 2003
Posts: 163
From: The Nexus

Send private message
Tue Aug 20, 2024 7:08 pm  

Samwise wrote:

As for a settlement across the river from Niole Dra, I am sure one exists. Most settlements on rivers find a way to spread to both banks.


Usually but not always. There are factors that could inhibit this.

One is the width of the Sheldomar at that point: it is about a mile wide. We didn't learn to make bridges to cross such distances until the Industrial Age with the development of steel bridges (Andrew Carnegie made his fortune figuring out how to do this).

Another is the topography. If the eastern bank is mostly wetlands, people would have to drain the land first. The sylvan elves of the Silverwood might not like that idea, and since there is so much land in other directions, the Crown might have decided it was simply not worth it.

I do think there is a ferry at this point, and probably a small village on the eastern bank that is technically in the Duchy but controlled by Keoland.
Master Greytalker

Joined: Jan 05, 2002
Posts: 1086
From: Sky Island, So Cal

Send private message
Wed Aug 28, 2024 9:21 pm  

My perspective (see my old Oerth Journal article if you want details) is that at the time Niole Dra was being made the capital, Power was in the form of heroic cavalry, and the open plains of northern Keoland were where horses were bred (and magic items were recovered).

Power in the form of international sea trade and wealth and magic guilds came much later, after the capital and the traditions associated with the Court and the Throne had long since been established.

Also, I would not be surprised if the Silent Ones wanted to keep the capital closer to their Tower than the southern coast.
_________________
My campaigns are multilayered tapestries upon which I texture themes and subject matter which, quite frankly, would simply be too strong for your hobbyist gamer.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Mp7Ikko8SI
Display posts from previous:   
   Canonfire Forum Index -> World of Greyhawk Discussion All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

Jump to:  

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum




Canonfire! is a production of the Thursday Group in assocation with GREYtalk and Canonfire! Enterprises

Contact the Webmaster.  Long Live Spidasa!


Greyhawk Gothic Font by Darlene Pekul is used under the Creative Commons License.

PHP-Nuke Copyright © 2005 by Francisco Burzi. This is free software, and you may redistribute it under the GPL. PHP-Nuke comes with absolutely no warranty, for details, see the license.
Page Generation: 1.92 Seconds