is just such an case. I don't have the words to do this article full justice. Read it and understand, if you did not already, why Canonfire is such a wonderful site.
Well done, Mort. I wish I had thought of this and said it as well but I'm glad you did Brilliant work! BRAVO! _________________ GVD
Damn, I'm speechless GVD. Thanks for that rousing compliment. I started this article over a year ago and I wasn't sure if I'd get it finished! Not only that after a reformat of my laptop I had to regauge all my battle data from scratch, luckily the bulk of the article was saved on backup. And heh, not to sound snide, but I am glad I -did- think of this before you. You'd have all the battles finished by now! :P But truthfully, with 50+ to choose from I probably wouldn't mind sharing the workload of documenting all GH's vast military history. I just hope my format could be kept for consistency sake. My next task is the Battle of a Thousand Banners. Wish me luck.
On a lighter note, I'm not sure what Don did or plans to do with my attached maps. I was torn on whether to make them or not, but I did end up doing them so it'd be a shame not to show them off. I'll post them here for further comparison on the article.
Well, I can't really add much to what GVD said above. Absolutely spot on.
I'm at the beginning stages of a major campaign re-vamp coinciding with the adoption of Pathfinder as a rules system. My players have asked for a return to the campaign style we had 10 years ago and a re-juggling of Greyhawk's recent (ie Wotc, LG) history. So, I've begun to look for articles in the CF archives that I can use as "canon" for my world; in other words, "save myself a bit of work".
Most articles don't quite fit with the vision I have for GH but this one was a perfect fit. So, thanks mort, and I can't wait for the next one.
Especially enjoyed how you explained the strategy of the victors. A pet peeve of mine has been the lack of detail within the battles of GH. Not every evil general or orc warlord has to be a military dullard.
Good doesn't always have to be vastly outnumbered and yet within the descriptions of battles - vastly outnumbered but the good guys win or despite the lack of strategy the evil horde overwhelmed the gallant defenders - no reason how or why the battle was won or lost.
I hope you continue to provide a strategic rationale within the upcoming articles.
Believe me I will Crag. And as GH battles in canon go, Emridy was a tiny one. Gygax wrote of many battles back in Dragon magazine well before Sargent tore up the map and there are a few other well known battles like Battle of a Fortnight's Length which is considered decisive but there is no data to go on except indirectly. It should be fun. I've always enjoyed reading military histories, my favorite era being the Napoleonic Wars.
I'm not sure what Don did or plans to do with my attached maps. I was torn on whether to make them or not, but I did end up doing them so it'd be a shame not to show them off. I'll post them here for further comparison on the article.
(reposted from the comments underneath the article)
txwad said:
While there is nothing wrong with having the two sides each be relatively small (under 10,000 or even 5,000 per side is fine) given logistics and the nature of medieval warfare, I vaguely remember the 1983 Greyhawk at least implying larger numbers. Especially, if you look at the "elven ambush" and the gnomish population of the Kron Hills, it seems like there should be more than twice the number of demihumans. In other words, if there are at least 20,000 gnomes in the Kron hills (and per Gygax's later clarification these are males only) and Greenway Valley is a mere 30 miles or so away, why wouldnt there be at least 1,000 gnomes at the Battle?
I think the number of core Furyondian/Velunan forces is fine if you consider the description of the Knights of the Hart which was something like a small but elite early warning "boots on the ground (er saddle)" type force. Thus the Allied forces could actually have a mere 50 knights of the Hart and the same number of knights and squires types around the Viscount of Verbobonc and their core of 100 or so heavy cavalry could be extraordinarily strong as these would mostly be Level 4-12 type figures.
Basically, specifically how canon are your sources for the numbers?
My numbers are not canon in the case of this battle. The 83 guide used many vague descriptions of a horde and squadrons, etc but no hard numbers. I could agree on the increase in demihumans part. Where I think my reasoning was in depicting this battle as smaller but no less decisive was two-fold: One, I have a spreadsheet of GH battles that do list canon figures(mainly gygax from Dragon magazine) and many of these large battles take place in the east or the north where human populations are higher and/or humanoids are understandably in greater numbers plus are able to gather freely. Nowhere local except in the Pomarj (and later much closer in the southern Wild Coast) are humanoids found in such great numbers. Thus I guessed that the Horde from the Temple was a sudden and surprise mustering of evil. Second, IMO the Temple of Elemental Evil and its environs, Nulb and the Moathouse could not have physically supported too large an army. They went from simple banditry to a Horde in a relatively short time. With these two factors in mind I went with the idea that the forces of Good sent a task force to siege a walled temple only to learn that they had assembled an army bigger than they hoped. This makes the route and victory all the more historic. The demihumans while better informed and in the area already could have sent more troops yes I will admit. Double numbers would have not hurt. At any rate this was a local event and not the TOEE vs Celene or Ulek (yet) so I kept it small scale I suppose. Remember, the TOEE is surrounded on all sides by good lands thus it would have been too easy for the area sovereignties to amass a huge army to make the Horde seem like less than a threat.
No problem. It was meant as a constructive critique not a criticism. I like your post. Here are some further thoughts:
good points on populations and difficulty in mustering forces for both sides. Plus the 1983 Greyhawk specifically discussed how the forces of Furyondy/Veluna/Verbobonc were slow to muster (thus the Knights of the Hart are kind of a quick reaction force). So under 5,000 combatants on each side makes a ton of sense. No doubt sage Furyondian counselors warned thrommel to wait and gather a larger army that would make the outcome certain but thrommel knew that the temple forces might raze Verbobonc if he didn't respond post-haste with a force of fast-riding retainers and Knights of the Hart. Please respond to the following constructive critiques:
1) Shouldn't the temple forces be a motley hodgepodge rather than orc-centric? My evidence, such as it is, is that the temple is CE rather than LE and also we know the temple ruins are dominated by bugbears, ogres and gnolls, with a tiny number of goblins and not a single orc that I remember. Thus, my suggestion would be to have the motliest assortment of humanoids you've ever seen (since they were gathered so hastily, the temple is CE and training is probably not the forte of such a group, plus the logistics of feeding motley humanoids are horrible without continuous looting). Would this be motley enough? 500 gnolls, 250 bugbears (hell, there are about 100 bugbears in the ruined ToEE), 50 ogres, 10 trolls, and 1,000 Orcish and Goblin opportunists from the Welkwood and Pomarj, plus 2,000 or so bandits, mercenaries from the Wild Coast and Nulbfolk and maybe 20 or so priests and their key retainers. That gets you to about 4,000. The ToEE forces would be riven with racial animosity and have a terrible command and control structure based on greed (looting) and fear (of the priests). In other words, the slightest reversal could lead to "devil take the hindmost". Most significantly, given the nature of the temple forces and the topography of the temple area (woods and Nulbish marsh), the Temple would have a tiny cavalry arm (mostly lightly armored bandit raiders on riding horses).
2) Might the allied side be a similar motley hodgepodge with an iron core? If the temple attacked quickly, wouldn't the base of the allied force be a hastily mustered levy of Verbobonc militia, as it might take months to muster professional infantry from Veluna or Furyondy to reach the battle? Say 1,000 semi-trained "weekend warriors" with farm implements turned polearms. Then if gnomish males per 1983 in the Kron Hills are 20,000+, then you'd have to have 500+ gnomes, probably organized well amongst themselves but operating under their own leaders and poorly integrated with the rest of the allied forces. Then you might have as many as 500 elven spearmen who spring the trap aroused by the tramping of humanoid boots through their territory. I say the elves have to be in the hundreds, otherwise it isn't much of a decisive trap! Then, the real core of the allied force would be the heavy cavalry. If there are only 200 or so Knights of the Hart and it is scattered, then maybe only 50 or so would be assembled quickly at the battle site and assume there are two squires per Knight. Assume the Viscount has 1 knight per 100 weekend warriors or 10 true heavy cavalrymen and those 10 have 2 squires or retainers each on average. If Thrommel is present at the battle (is that canon?), then its hard to imagine the prince of Furyondy going anywhere without at least 100 or so elite Furyondian knights, squires and retainers. Thus the cavalry core of the Allied forces might be only 280 men, but these would be veteran paladins, cavaliers and fighters mounted on heavy or medium warhorses, well armed with heavy armor and lances, perhaps averaging 4th-6th level with a handful being 10th+ level, an easy match on the open plain vs. the higher level temple humanoids - the 800 badly disorganized gnolls, bugbears, ogres and trolls.
My numbers might be similar to yours - though the composition would be a little different. Say roughly 4,000 on the temple side vs. roughly 2,500 allies. I think the battle tactics you propose sound great, as the gnomes and dwarves would be disciplined enough to pull off a feigned retreat and the elves sneaky enough in the woods to ambush from behind. The 0-level Verbobonc militia would serve mostly to add a stable mass to the allied force and screen the cavalry, but probably shouldn't play a decisive role. I'd emphasize more is that the 280 or so elite cavalry would have driven through the Temple forces like a hot knife through butter once the slightest bit of panic or disorganization set in among the temple forces after the elven ambush. I'd definitely emphasize that the heavy cavalry's "mopping up" action actually inflicted 90% of the losses on the Temple forces. In medieval warfare, most casualties were inflicted AFTER an army lost the battle and/or ran and this should be similar. Few if any of the temple forces (except some of the bandits on light horses returning to Nulb) could have escaped cavalry on an open field.
Seeing Gary's old wargames of the sack of the moathouse always made me want to wargame Emridy Meadows. Frankly though, Emridy Meadows is a pretty lopsided contest when you consider the quality of forces arrayed rather than the quantity and you consider the temple's impulsive decision to fight against heavy cavalry on an open plain. Of course, chaotic evil priests are not known for their tactical military planning.
I didnt even notice your maps until now. Cool deal! There isnt a key, but don't squares with lines through them usually mean cavalry? Like I said, I'd be surprised if the temple had much cavalry.
No problem. It was meant as a constructive critique not a criticism. I like your post. Here are some further thoughts:
Good feedback so far, and I do like discussing this battle since it will help me formulate better for the battles to come that I don't have ample evidence for.
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1) Shouldn't the temple forces be a motley hodgepodge rather than orc-centric? My evidence, such as it is, is that the temple is CE rather than LE and also we know the temple ruins are dominated by bugbears, ogres and gnolls, with a tiny number of goblins and not a single orc that I remember.
The assortment of humanoids present is correct per the 83 guide. Alignments never really factored into my thinking as all the racial types were chosen for me. All I could have done differently was assign less orcs and more of something else as you suggested.
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Most significantly, given the nature of the temple forces and the topography of the temple area (woods and Nulbish marsh), the Temple would have a tiny cavalry arm (mostly lightly armored bandit raiders on riding horses).
The 83 guide does say they had a human cavalry arm but the size I gave was an educated guess based on the quote that the "men in the evil ranks rode to engage the center and right." This is after the humanoids(and the bulk of the Horde) chose to attack just the demihumans. So for a tiny arm of ill equipped(i agree on that part) human cavalry to charge two units of trained human soldiery (cavalry and pikes) at the same time would be unwise. Thats how I arrive at a larger band of evil cavalry.
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2) Might the allied side be a similar motley hodgepodge with an iron core? If the temple attacked quickly, wouldn't the base of the allied force be a hastily mustered levy of Verbobonc militia, as it might take months to muster professional infantry from Veluna or Furyondy to reach the battle? Say 1,000 semi-trained "weekend warriors" with farm implements turned polearms. Then if gnomish males per 1983 in the Kron Hills are 20,000+, then you'd have to have 500+ gnomes, probably organized well amongst themselves but operating under their own leaders and poorly integrated with the rest of the allied forces. Then you might have as many as 500 elven spearmen who spring the trap aroused by the tramping of humanoid boots through their territory. I say the elves have to be in the hundreds, otherwise it isn't much of a decisive trap! Then, the real core of the allied force would be the heavy cavalry. If there are only 200 or so Knights of the Hart and it is scattered, then maybe only 50 or so would be assembled quickly at the battle site and assume there are two squires per Knight. Assume the Viscount has 1 knight per 100 weekend warriors or 10 true heavy cavalrymen and those 10 have 2 squires or retainers each on average.
I imagine the makeup of the Good side could be like you say. I didn't dwell much on how much was from which nationality or how experienced they were. Retainers and such might not count in the overall troop figures as armies have camps and wagon trains sometimes. A thought I've reserved for when I do a bigger Aerdian type battle.
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If Thrommel is present at the battle (is that canon?), then its hard to imagine the prince of Furyondy going anywhere without at least 100 or so elite Furyondian knights, squires and retainers. Thus the cavalry core of the Allied forces might be only 280 men, but these would be veteran paladins, cavaliers and fighters mounted on heavy or medium warhorses, well armed with heavy armor and lances, perhaps averaging 4th-6th level with a handful being 10th+ level, an easy match on the open plain vs. the higher level temple humanoids - the 800 badly disorganized gnolls, bugbears, ogres and trolls.
Yes Thrommel is canon(his first mention I believe) and I do agree as I wrote he brought his picked guard, which is the second line of cavalry on my map. The levels of these individuals in addition to Thrommel and Serten were likely as you say but in keeping with my fluffy military account I try not to dwell on the crunch values of D&D for in truth if Emridy were played out on table top a handful of Thrommel/Serten types could wipe half a Horde of evil by themselves! Once again this is something that will get even more attention as I get into bigger battles.
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I'd emphasize more is that the 280 or so elite cavalry would have driven through the Temple forces like a hot knife through butter once the slightest bit of panic or disorganization set in among the temple forces after the elven ambush. I'd definitely emphasize that the heavy cavalry's "mopping up" action actually inflicted 90% of the losses on the Temple forces. In medieval warfare, most casualties were inflicted AFTER an army lost the battle and/or ran and this should be similar. Few if any of the temple forces (except some of the bandits on light horses returning to Nulb) could have escaped cavalry on an open field.
I agree and that is what happened essentially as I wrote. The trap kept the Horde with their backs to the river, leaving them to either swim and drown or break through and run to be cut down by the cavalry. Some had to have been allowed to get back to the Temple though as I scrounged a canon source in 'Return to TOEE' that says farmers sighted Temple forces fleeing through town after the battle. But thats very few.
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Seeing Gary's old wargames of the sack of the moathouse always made me want to wargame Emridy Meadows. Frankly though, Emridy Meadows is a pretty lopsided contest when you consider the quality of forces arrayed rather than the quantity and you consider the temple's impulsive decision to fight against heavy cavalry on an open plain. Of course, chaotic evil priests are not known for their tactical military planning.
Amen. But even as lopsided or decisive as it is, its still the biggest single battle to happen within range of GH City in the last few hundred years. The lands of Verbobonc and Greyhawk, etc should be so lucky that the Pomarj and Iuz are buffered from them. Good discussion txwad. I'm happy to field more questions. :)
Again, let me emphasize how grateful I am to you for this level of detail and effort (its easy to be a critic) before I throw a few more pinpricks:
1) Rufus and Burne at the battle? Cmon, you snuck that in. Doesn't that seem a little too "completist"? That isn't canon as far as I know.
2) Should there have been any evil cleric specialty type creatures at the battle? Elementals, demons, undead (in daylight?), maybe another juggernaut like the one in the Water Temple?
3) How did Sertern die? Give him a fitting death. Maybe crushed to death by a rampaging earth elemental summoned by the Cleric with Yellowskull (if he was at the battle)?
4) I reread the glossography and it said something like orcs, gnolls and ogres among humanoids. Still think you need more gnolls and ogres (and bugbears) and fewer orcs.
5) On second thought, rereading the battle and the tactics on the map, I think the bulk of the allied human infantry would have to be skilled furyondian or velunan. Militia couldn't pull off that kind of pivot, you were right.
6) I like your solution to the "Emridy Meadows" problem (getting the battle near to the Velverdyva but recognizing the name) and there are a lot of situations in history where a battle with a name was actually fought nearby (e.g. Bunker Hill , Breed Hill). On the other hand, isn't it a simpler solution to say that "Emridy Meadows" is the name for that entire lowland area south of the Velverdyva, East of Verbobonc city, West of the Gnarley, and north of the Hommlet/Kron hill country?
I can't wait to see your blow by blow on other battles. Good show
IIRC: the impression is Rufus and Burne were "local heroes" given the fact that the militia didn't have a significant role within the battle itself. The role they played could be exaggrated - killing a couple orcs becomes fighting by the side of the Prince once they are within the welcome wench.
The bandits ranged pretty far afield as the horde gathered strength; I agree they should be ill armed motley group there could have been quite a few of them. Gathered in one place the bandits might of been bolstered by their numbers.
The horde was a hodgepodge of various brigand and humanoid types. When I read the article the overwhelming orc presence seemed excessive - agree a mixture of humanoid races seems more natural.
As for the cleric presence: I have to disagree the priestly leaders of the horde remained behind - some minor horde priests were present but none had the power needed to summon demons.
1) Rufus and Burne at the battle? Cmon, you snuck that in. Doesn't that seem a little too "completist"? That isn't canon as far as I know.
I cant recall which of my varied sources I drew that from, but if its not canonical it is semi. In the very least the inference is too strong to ignore. I believe the source I found said the Viscount donated some constructions to Homlett in gratitude for the battle and the bestowment of a keep to R&B was one of those. So surely in keeping with medieval warfare it was a battlefield ennoblement/titling like reward.
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2) Should there have been any evil cleric specialty type creatures at the battle? Elementals, demons, undead (in daylight?), maybe another juggernaut like the one in the Water Temple?
If one were playing it out in game, I would say yes. Realistically I'd say no. The Horde was expendable manpower purely. Any gradiose expenditures of magic or unnatural assistance would've been mentioned in canon -somewhere- by now. I'm sure the Temple left all that power for their defense of the dungeons.
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3) How did Sertern die? Give him a fitting death. Maybe crushed to death by a rampaging earth elemental summoned by the Cleric with Yellowskull (if he was at the battle)?
A fitting death would be nice I agree but I intentionally avoided telling the exact way he died because it wasn't covered anywhere before. The sad thing is death in war is often unglorious. I could have him taken down in solo combat vs a Nazgul for instance but given the opponents he was up against Serten was most likely sniped by poison arrows or thrown from his horse and impaled by a passing ogre. Who knows. Better left to each DM most likely ;)
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4) I reread the glossography and it said something like orcs, gnolls and ogres among humanoids. Still think you need more gnolls and ogres (and bugbears) and fewer orcs.
No arguments there afterall a Horde is given an estimated number. Orcs don't keep records and the Good guys didn't take time to count heads. :D
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5) On second thought, rereading the battle and the tactics on the map, I think the bulk of the allied human infantry would have to be skilled furyondian or velunan. Militia couldn't pull off that kind of pivot, you were right.
Yeah, militia/levies feature in the siege parts. They get their due.
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6) I like your solution to the "Emridy Meadows" problem (getting the battle near to the Velverdyva but recognizing the name) and there are a lot of situations in history where a battle with a name was actually fought nearby (e.g. Bunker Hill , Breed Hill). On the other hand, isn't it a simpler solution to say that "Emridy Meadows" is the name for that entire lowland area south of the Velverdyva, East of Verbobonc city, West of the Gnarley, and north of the Hommlet/Kron hill country?
Yes that is true and I pondered that issue heavily looking at the scant maps available online. One or two putting the battlefield (crossedswords) symbol no where near a river! So I had to concoct something and after hours of mental gymnastics this is what I settled on.
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I can't wait to see your blow by blow on other battles. Good show
IIRC: the impression is Rufus and Burne were "local heroes" given the fact that the militia didn't have a significant role within the battle itself. The role they played could be exaggrated - killing a couple orcs becomes fighting by the side of the Prince once they are within the welcome wench.
I think my sources indicated they settled in Homlett after the Viscount gave them land for a keep. Why else would they get such a reward but winning it in battle? But yes, exaggerations do happen, and in Ricard Damaris' case that may be more true than Rufus and Burne.
I thought I had seen something saying that Rufus and Byrne took part in the battle but never did find it. The closest I found was in RToEE where it says that they were "...involved with the fall of the original temple." So at the very least they were on the scene after the battle, even if they weren't actually in the battle.
10 years previously, Burne would probably only have been around unthinkably high level(6th!), if that, so he probably wouldn't have been taking part in the binding of any sort of demon, let alone a unique and very powerful demoness.
If he was involed in some way, it was probably to serve as a bookholder, spell component caddy, or other menial role to a much more powerful mage or priest.
I did say utilized not orchestrated. ;) I'm sure he was just a magic missiler in the Battle too. Then again, if TOEE was written in this day and age of Adventure Paths he could've been epic level by the time he was 19!
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I wish I had thought of this and said it as well but I'm glad you did 
Brilliant work! BRAVO! 
