The Watch is an Order of Knights spread from Keoland to Bissel. But it is not the Gran March army right? Yet the Commandant of Gran March is from the ranks of the Watch. Also the Watch is said to number 2500 yet the Gran Mrch army is said to be 18,000. What is the realtionship? Is it good? _________________ "Its a dangerous business going out your front door." JRR Tolkien
Unless you are a Greyhawk Heretic.
The research I have done indicated that although the comandant is elected of and by knights and nobles, the second to last (Petros) resigned his post and named Magnus as his successor. I think the fact that Magnus was a KoW wasn't a consideration as much as his qualifications.
Anyway, as far as I can determine, the relationship between the KoW and the standing army of Gran March is good, but strained.
Ivor and i have discussed this extensively, and I think that this comes down to a simple political scrap. Who is going to control the county? The Commandant resigned, in a fairly secret affair, and a KoW replaced him. Thats what it looks like from my reading. And that smacks of stealing the reigns of power.
Intentions do not matter here, this is politics, with word of mouth being the primary means of communication. Everyone has played gossip, where you whisper a secret and it goes around the circle? In GM, the gossip must be awful.
The Knights have always controlled the GM, and probably feel that it is their right and duty to rule. However, they were decimated by the Ketite invasion. They had lost several key engagements in the Short War, and they seemed to have bowed out of the Hateful Wars. They did (if I read this right) foster a revolution in Geoff at the end of the last century. They are less than 2%of the population, but they wield far more influence, but this is not backed up with the predominance of military power, which is held with the Military.
The Army had to swing into action and save the remnants of the Geoffite Army, battle the Ketites until they can be turned, and march off to fight in Ulek, Furyondy, Veluna, and Sterich. They number 18,000 with the reserves on near active status. This is a HUGE political force. And if American Service Men are indiciative of armies everywhere (and I think they may well be) they dont let reason stand in the way of what they think Sorry Hammar, I just couldnt resist. For those who dont know Hammar is Active Duty, and should be thanked, and kidded for it both at the same time. But the point is, the army has been dying in these engagements, and that seems to give people a strong sense that their point of view should be heard, and is valid.
So, 2500 knights (down from 6500) suddenly replace the Commandant. Most people in GM have not served in the Knights, but they did serve in the Army. Now the perception is most likely "they are stealing 'our glory,' again" and it has to be on the mind of every sargent in the force. And the Knights loyalty is in question. The SB has assasinated people everywhere, and even if it hasnt happend in GM, the fear and discontent has to have spread. After all, what is the knight's secret purpose, all those rites and things. The knights are loyal to who, arent they in Keoland, bissel, and now Geoff? These things have to play through the mind of the General whose job it is to defend Gran March. Military types tend to take such oaths seriously, and err on the side of caution. Caution inevitably leans to having the power in the hands of the military guys. Fact of History.
These questions have to play through the minds of the Army and the Rank and File everyday. I belive, regardless of how cozy the leaders of the Military and the KoW are, the KoW are loosing a perception war they may not even know they are fighting. THERE HAS TO BE POLITICAL TENSION BETWEEN THESE TWO GROUPS. The nobles play them against one another, the guilds, the other nations. It just doesnt make sense otherwise, unless all the people Gran March are invested with all the good qualities of angels. And they are just mortals, lawful good mortals, but mortals.
This is not an implication that the Knights are evil. They are just caught in a political mess, and I think one they cannot win in the long term with their chapter houses outside the country. I see the average GM citizen looking around and seeing it's manifest destiny, and being subsevient to the KoW is no where in that Manifest Destiny.
Anced,
I know you've got a lot more experience than I do in Greyhawk (and I mean A LOT, old man.) Seriosly though, I do have one question:
Is your interpretation of the situation between KoW and GM from canon rules, or is it based more on other readings. What I read from the GH gazeteer did not pit the two organizations against each other. Admittedly, I am not looking into the history as much as the current info, but for obvious reasons, I should be as aware of the subject as possible.
Ok, let me back up, there is little to do with Canon in my thesis here. Rather, I am trying to think like the various groups involved. With that said I am making a few assumptions about a few facts, such as:
Fact: Gran March is a primarily human nations
Assumption: One group or humans, or many, are trying to assert their position as the leadership.
I feel pretty good about the soundness of that assumption.
Fact: Gran March's military is the largest single power center in the country. With reserves and retired militia it makes up... well everybody.
Assumption: Military leaders tend to be most comfortable when they are in Command.
Again I feel pretty good about this assumption.
Fact: Gran March has a broad and fairly effective nobility, able to gain independance from Keoland.
Assumption: By their very nature, nobles want to be in charge.
This one feels pretty solid.
Fact: The KoW have always ruled GM, and recently a commandant was removed, after a conclave of the KoW, and the old one was replaced by a KoW.
Assumption: The KoW feel it is their right, tradition and duty to govern GM.
THis one doesnt seem much of stretch either.
By this point it is pretty obvious where I am going. This is ripe for a political campaign, though most would have never suspected from the LGG description of GM. Not only that, you have tradition and duty competeing with a changing role in the world, and a knighthood on the wane, or at least down for a count.
Now, what I am not suggesting is that the Knights will simply disappear. These people are far to orderly, and the knights do have a presitgious place in GM society. Nor do i expect that things will start immediately. However, I do think that something on the order to the Roman Succession of the Plebs may well occur at the next election of the Commandant.
I think the political tensionin the nation is high, there are enemies on all sides, and the borders are not stable. This is a powder keg, but as we progress into subjects of politics I think that all politicl groups will seek comprise. But I do not see how the status quo can survive.
Fact: The KoW have always ruled GM, and recently a commandant was removed, after a conclave of the KoW, and the old one was replaced by a KoW.
Assumption: The KoW feel it is their right, tradition and duty to govern GM.
I need to clarify something. I thought that the KoW hadn't ruled GM for about 100 years. That is, until Magnus took over. It says in LGG "In 415 CY...Aware that the nobles would not tolerate a harsh commandant, the king allowed them to elect one of their own to the position..." then, "...The government and knighthood remained closely allied."
Now, I agree with everything you're saying I just want to make sure I'm not completely missing something. Are you saying that the KoW have actually been running the country (besides for present day)? If so, do you mean through a figure-head govt?
I appologize for my noobish questions, but I have to be absolutely certain we are all on the same page of music before I can try to be of any assistance.
Actually, i may have misunderstood the history. I thought that the Knights had been controlling the country until about 100 years ago, at which time the Nobles were given the rule. THis has been a legitimate rule, but one heavily influenced by the Knights.
That is why I thought the conclave of knights then the replacement of the commandant so aggressive. I will have wait until other who are more familiar with the canon weigh in.
Hammarr_Jaerome welcome to the to the Discussion that is the Knight of the Watch.
Here is some more Canon
Quote:
" The Order of Knights were rewarded the fief [Shilobeth to Hookhill] to defend the northern borders by duke of Dorlin"
p 65 LGG
Quote:
".. . south nearly to Hookhill . the Knight of the Hart captured Bissel " 438 Cy
this is a real hate rivalry between the KoW and KoH
This also brought about end of Keoland influence over GM p 65 LGG
Quote:
" Knights of the Watch led attack against the hated Baklunish inhabiting Bissel ... Gran March army moved across the border harrying those Baklunish slow in retreating. In Bissel the knights attempted to help the people restructure their badly wounded society even going so far as to appoint members of the Knight of the Watch to vacant positions of authority( without the consent of Bissel's new Margrave)
Thereafter , the commandant turned his full attention to the lost lands. Strerich was liberated in 588 CY ... Hochoch freed 586 by the Gran March Army."
p 51 LGG
Here I see that the Commandant has actually achieved more than the former one and has directed much of the army.
Quote:
A vicious , violent push into Geoff came in 588 CY. Orchestrated by the Knights of Dispatch in Hochoch...
p 49 LGG
Quote:
Anger is common the land [Bissel] ; the Knights of the Watch have seen their ranks swell considerably... Commanders of the invigorated Knights of the Watch look over the Burgeoning town [Pellak] ...
p 33
People of Strerich also filled the ranks of the Dispatch when they left planning their return p 107 LGG
KoW has good support in Bissel at least amongst the common folk.
I think the Anced point is that the tension is at a high level of leadership. I would think the that most of the common folk would see the Commandant doing great things with the Army and the Watch and not always able to differentiate between them all the time.
The Watch is obviously becoming more political and very much dislikes the Baklunish to the point of racism p 160 LGG as they believe that the Baklunish worship Iuz secretly.
Also note that iquander suggests that theyor their ancestors were created to fight Vecna. _________________ "Its a dangerous business going out your front door." JRR Tolkien
Unless you are a Greyhawk Heretic.
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Sorry Hammar, I just couldnt resist. For those who dont know Hammar is Active Duty, and should be thanked, and kidded for it both at the same time. But the point is, the army has been dying in these engagements, and that seems to give people a strong sense that their point of view should be heard, and is valid.
Seriosly though, I do have one question: