1. He seems to have misunderstood what I'd said about the Rhola and Neheli killing people. They drove off or wiped out the Firstcomers, not the Flan. They tried to ally with the Flan as he portrays, but most of them were so scarred by encounters with the Firstcomers that they simply fled as soon as they were freed. We've discussed this, and I expect he'll account for it in the future.
2. I do indeed support the Flan having bronze age or early iron age cities. My support for this is in Vecna Lives!, in the scene at Tovag Baragu. One of the vistas visible through the arches is of a bronze age city from his era. Combine this with the level of social development possessed by the ur-Flan, and I find the statement in the 83 set that the Flan "made no appreciable efforts at civilization" to be utterly unsupportable. Tostenhca, Sulm, even Vecna himself, all suggest that the Flan made very appreciable efforts at civilization. As well, a deity like Rao speaks of a very refined social structure, as does Allitur.
There is more, but I'm not looking to write a grand rebuttal, merely to clarify two of the more critical issues that I was cited in regards to. (I've never been cited that much!)
Also, as a side note, I was shocked when I saw I was listed as a contributor. I couldn't remember submitting anything to the OJ, but when I saw what it was, I remembered I had told Kirt he could use it. I just didn't realize it was going to be there, and because it is listed separately on the download page I was really caught by surprise.
Now to wait for part 2 of the timeline and the accompanying essays to show up as regular Canonfire! submssions.
Have you read the Vecna: Hand of the Revenant graphic novel, and if so, how does that influence your thinking about the early Flan cities/etc.? _________________ Allan Grohe<br />https://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/greyhawk.html<br />https://grodog.blogspot.com/
I always assumed the comment in the 83 set, that the Flan "made no appreciable efforts at civilization" as a POV statement comparing the impact and level of advancement of the new arrivals (Baklunish, Oeridians and Suel).
Like the viewpoint of the europeans developed regarding the colonial world that led to "white mans burden" philosophy because the Flan didn't have the "cultural advancements" the new arrivals viewed the Flan as primitives that were not using the potential of the land.
The "white man's burden" had more to do with certain moral and social elements than technological developments.
It also included a very significant obligation to the people being "colonialized" that is all too often completely overlooked. Given the general oppression and forcing aside of the Flan, such an attitude is definitely not present in the Oeridians or the vast majority of the Suel. As it goes, the only people you do find it among are - the Rhola and Neheli! As the glossography was written by an Aerdi, the concept is not applicable.
1. He seems to have misunderstood what I'd said about the Rhola and Neheli killing people. They drove off or wiped out the Firstcomers, not the Flan. They tried to ally with the Flan as he portrays, but most of them were so scarred by encounters with the Firstcomers that they simply fled as soon as they were freed. We've discussed this, and I expect he'll account for it in the future.
I was indeed in error on this. I am not sure whether I knew Sam's view on this in January, when I submitted the article. But I certainly knew it after then, and failed to correct the Author's Forward while the article was still in the edting stage. My apologies to Sam.
My basic point was that in Sam and Gary's views, the Neheli and Rhola were not as good as they would like people to believe, and they do not take the text in the WoG at face value. Certainly they were better then the Firstcomers (although the Neheli's deal with Vecna was pretty sinister). I believe simply removing the phrase "and slaughtered" from the Author's forward is sufficient to make the attribution accurate.
Samwise wrote:
2. I do indeed support the Flan having bronze age or early iron age cities. My support for this is in Vecna Lives!, in the scene at Tovag Baragu. One of the vistas visible through the arches is of a bronze age city from his era. Combine this with the level of social development possessed by the ur-Flan, and I find the statement in the 83 set that the Flan "made no appreciable efforts at civilization" to be utterly unsupportable. Tostenhca, Sulm, even Vecna himself, all suggest that the Flan made very appreciable efforts at civilization. As well, a deity like Rao speaks of a very refined social structure, as does Allitur.
I agree with all of this, but I would add that there is no specific reference to the Flan having cities IN THE SHELDOMAR. The Vecna Lves! references, AFAIK are not specific to any place. Thus, that the Firstcomer or later Suel encountered Flan cties not under the authority of Vecna remains the personal speculation of Sam.
Samwise wrote:
Also, as a side note, I was shocked when I saw I was listed as a contributor. I couldn't remember submitting anything to the OJ, but when I saw what it was, I remembered I had told Kirt he could use it. I just didn't realize it was going to be there, and because it is listed separately on the download page I was really caught by surprise.
This was an edting decision to which I was not party. Given the number of editors this issue consumed, understand that things like this happened.
Cheers. _________________ My campaigns are multilayered tapestries upon which I texture themes and subject matter which, quite frankly, would simply be too strong for your hobbyist gamer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Mp7Ikko8SI
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