So, here we are at last. We have hex, and I have taken it upon myself to place the village within what little of the Gamboge Forest lies within the hex. Even still, the village does not lie too far into the forest at all points, and will be located right...about...here:
At this point, I am going to lay out some basic information on the village.
Terrain-wise, it is a varied enough area, with the village being within the forest, but with the open grasslands of the Pale nearby in most directions. I have always thought of villages as having a population of more than 100 and less than 500, and I think that this is an ideal population size to write up- just big enough to be interesting, but not so big that it requires a full-on supplement to do it justice.
So, after having rolled some dice (yes, I really did), the population will be made up of 267 hardy souls (about 45 families, plus other individuals). This will actually be quite a few people, considering that the village is in the Gamboge Forest. The village was founded in CY 487 by tough settlers, namely woodsmen, hunters, and farmers. This is a frontier-type area, literally lying on the border of Nyrond, and in a more out-of-the-way place. Civilization may have gradually encroached on the area since its founding, but its presence is still not too strongly felt at this point. There are no large/complex stone buildings or fortifications in the village, though much of the village is surrounded by a ditch, with some sections of palisade walls and fencing to discourage the occasional marauding bandits, hobgoblins, ogres, or other creatures. The village itself is comprised of 50+ structures, including some located farther out from the village proper.
Except for the village itself, and scattered ares around it that have been somewhat tamed (mostly for farming), the terrain is fairly rugged. The closest source of water is a stream that lies within the forest a few miles from the village, so water is provided by two wells.
As the village is more on the small side, and is located in rugged terrain that will attract mostly self-motivated folks, there are still not many service-based businesses in the village. There is an inn and a blacksmith (these being two of a small number of mostly stone structures in the village), there is a bowyer (exclusively uses hornwood for bows), a wainwright (who partners with the blacksmith to make carts, wagons, and plows), an herbalist/healer/midwife (who could be full-blown wizard/sorcerer, or not), a brewer, and (of course) a miller. While some villagers may use some of these services, many still take care of what they can on their own; especially the more self-sufficient villagers living farther out from the village proper.
The village has two chapels (neither dedicated to Pholtus) and five shrines (one dedicated to Pholtus). No portion of the village population is zealously dedicated to any one god in particular (though some are favored a bit more)- even the few Pholtans living here are a bit more even keeled. The Flan faiths have a strong presence here, as may the Oeridian agricultural deities.
The village is overseen by a village elder. Along with twenty of the older boys in the village, thirty of the men of the village form the village's rangers/watch/militia, depending on their individual skills, though only about one fourth of them is on duty at any one time, as they have their own families/farms/business to take care of. One feature of note is a large tree located near the center of the village, which the village children are encouraged to play about.
The village is located roughly a long day's walk on forested paths and rutted roads to the town of Stradsett to the north. The journey east to Abbotsford takes about a day and half, but most of the way is in open terrain, and it is very likely that a hamlet lies at a median point along the way. It takes a full two days to travel to Woodsedge to the south, with there being a well known campsite at the midpoint of the journey, which is mostly used by Woodsedgers traveling north to the village, Stradsett, and onwards to other towns and cities in the northern Pale.
Those are some rough ideas. I may keep some or all of that, or replace some of it, depending on what ideas others have to add. Nothing is set in stone at this point, so offer up some more ideas/details on the village. Recommend specific businesses (not ALL possibilities, but one, if any, that you think should be there based on what size of village we are working with), information on the racial make-up of the village, potential features of the village or its surroundings, etc. You will want to review whatever information you may have access to on the Gamboge Forest, The Pale, and Nyrond (in that order or precedence even). _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
The first thing I think of is motivation. Why are those villager living there? The Gamboge is independent ground, with neither Nyrond or the Pale claiming it. That said, I'd think that most of the villagers are the descendants of some of the Pale's original inhabitants who moved into the forest to gain freedom from the not-very-open-minded Pholtans who took over their land and tried to convert them from their simple, natured-based faith. The next thing I think is economics. The villagers could be simple, subsistence farmers, selling whatever surplus they have in Stradsett on market day. Or they could engage in more lucrative trade. I noticed on Eric's "Shadows of The Rakers" map that he places a river flowing roughly through the area where the village is being placed. I imagine that most of the hornwoods, near the forest edges and areas where Palish loggers harvest, were cut long ago and are now very rare. The villagers, living in harmony with nature could cut the occasional hornwood, replacing it with numerous seedlings to offset what they take, and also averting the wrath of nearby fey. This would allow them to float these rare logs downriver to a location near Stradsett, and sell them for a hefty profit.
Another thought it how the village might interact with the monasteries located "...near the western woods" (LGG p. 81), which seem to be centers of freer thought in The Pale.
The village is located roughly a long day's walk on forested paths and rutted roads to the town of Stradsett to the north. The journey east to Abbotsford takes about a day and half, but most of the way is in open terrain . . .
I'm going to assume that the hexes do not represent 30 miles, as do the hexes on the Darlene map, given that hardened soldiers march 20 miles a day and villagers would hardly qualify as "hardened soldiers."
I also have to wonder about the economy, given that Adventurers would hardly stop in a place that subsisted solely on barter -- no reason to sell, or trade their treasure. It would serve only as a place to acquire food and rest.
Without a sufficient money supply, the "bartender" couldn't even make change for their gold pieces. To serve as a focal point in a campaign, the village would need some business, some amount of "cash flow."
Additionally, though the Gamboge is technically neutral territory, I doubt the 'religiously intolerant' Theocracy would hesitate to enforce its religious laws on a village within easy riding/walking distance of the forest's edge on the side adjacent to their nation. Thus, I find the blatant erection of two non-Pholtan temples and other shrines to be a bit unbelievable, unless we develop a reason for such to exist without interference from the Pholtan authorities. Do they have the protection of the fey? Is there a powerful patron living in secret within or near the village? Is it's location, or the existence of the temples/shrines, magically masked from the prying eyes of the Pholtans? Are the authorities aware of their existence and planning a raid upon the village to destroy the idols and put the villagers 'to the question' to save their souls and prevent the spread of pagan influences? Are Nyrondal agents secretly using this village as a base of operations and providing such cover and support to prevent drawing the Pholtan's attention? Is it the Iuzians that are behind this, pretending to be Nyrondal agents?
Is there a powerful patron living in secret within or near the village? Is it's location, or the existence of the temples/shrines, magically masked from the prying eyes of the Pholtans?
Perhaps it is a location sacred to Obad-hai and he and Pholtus have an agreement? Or perhaps it's Fharlanghn? Perhaps the villagers practice the "Old Faith" and are protected by Beory?
Perhaps the non-Pholtan temples and shrines aren't in the village proper, but are deeper in the woods (days travel in) and well-hidden. The village is a gathering point for worshippers travelling (on pilgrimage) from other parts of The Pale and caters to the needs of individuals and groups of such pilgrims, including pointing them down the correct path to their temple of choice.
This gives the village a reason for being and provides a reason for a few more merchants to set up shop there (it's a waypoint for numbers of travellers). It would be a dangerous existence, because of the possibility of being discovered by the authorities. PCs could be called by one or more of the deities who's temples are in danger or by the village elders to save them from an attack soon to be launched by inquisitorial forces.
The village is located where it is for one reason- freedom. When you live away from any government center, where some official or other is always wanting to stick their nose in your business, you can basically live how you want to. That goes for both religious reasons and taxation reasons. That's it.
So, the place is very independent. It was not founded by Pholtan missionaries, or any other kind of missionaries, and it is not a pilgrimage site, as that would utterly destroy its anonymity. Having a large logging operation centered on rare and valuable woods would also kill its anonymity. The point is, stick to the basics. This isn't THE village, it is A village. It is a potential launching point for adventure. Not sure how that could be lost on anyone (and yet the final location is what it is).
Another main point- THE main point. Has everyone forgotten the directive already? The village's livelihood is a good topic, though despite Eric's maps, there is no river near the village. I consider it generous to have added a nearby stream, but am willing to make at least that minor concession. The whole point of this project is using the folio/83' boxed set as a base, meaning the Darlene maps are the map base, and there is no sizable river near this location. While the early maps surely don't show every tiny waterway, there remains the point that we won't just choose a fan-made map for its features "just because", so everyone please get that idea out of their heads right now, as it serves no purpose. The only reason I have included any later material is to make it a bit easier for people to think about what their own "extra credit" sections might include.
Also, the early Pale material does not set up the Pale as the LN version of the Nazi Germany-esque Scarlet Brotherhood, except where racial intolerance is replaced by religious intolerance (i.e. not everybody uses the Fate of Istus and later material). Perhaps people forget that, back in the day, Wee Jas very openly has a grand cathedral in the capital city of Wintershiven. One would assume that that is not the only non-Pholtan temple in the city either, let alone located throughout entirety of the Pale. If you want to play up the religious oppression angle to the umpteenth degree, save it for your "extra credit", though it will likely have little place in a frontier village at all.
What some may find unbelievable is more than very believable when viewed in the correct context. Save your "this information makes use of everything after the folio/83' boxed set material" for your "extra credit" sections, rather than make it integral to what you are going to write. The problem is, that is mainly what I see at this point. You all need to stop doing this. Save it for your "extra credit" sections. Don't worry, I am not trying to sandbag anyone. I will have an extra "credit section" too which will make use of the later material (you may have noted that I saved the last paragraph of my initial thoughts for relating the village's location to other non-baseline locations). I will just make a point of not building the foundation of my material upon it, and you all need to do the same. Remember the baseline. If you don't know what the baseline is, get out your folio/83' boxed set and read it.
With that in mind, this village could very well be a place where any sort of Pholtan zealot could be made to quietly disappear.
"He was chasing some outsider, and he went off into the woods after him. We went looking for them, but we found nothing, so there might be something dangerous in the area.", said the large man leaning on a large hornwood bow, standing behind which were around fifty other men and older boys leaning on large hornwood bows.
Hmmm. It is almost as if I had already thought of something like this. So, don't be too fixated on the Pholtan Gestapo angle of things, as that sort of presence, even considering later material, is going to be almost unheard of in what is essentially a neutral frontier area. The Pholtan Gestapo has plenty to attend to in the more populated areas of the Pale anyways. Doesn't mean that I won't include something like this in a "Rumors and Adventure Hooks" section though...
Then we also have the possible relationships between the village and the elves and gnomes of the Gamboge, and as such, there likely will be a few gnomes, elves, and half elves in the village too, so me some of the shrines might be to demi-human deities such as Baervan Wildwanderer, Solonor Thelandira, or Rillifane Ralathil. The village probably trades with these folk, and could be allied with them as well, the village being a buffer between the demi-humans and the Pale. Then there are possible links to Nyrondese agents. I don't see a need to blatantly go into the political ramifications of things though. People can do that on their own, so these are just some things to keep in the back of one's mind.
I am probably insane for mentioning this, but here is another idea. People can draw and submit *simple* maps of their offerings. Usually this will be just an outline of a small home (and perhaps surrounding farmland). Larger buildings could have more detailed maps. Then they could all be put together on a full village map. Might be more trouble than it is worth, but there you go. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
That 'Pholtan Gestapo' impression came from the '83 boxed set. Here's the quote:
"The Pale is not noted for religious tolerance."
Though later products explored this sentence in more depth, it is not unreasonable to assume that such gestapo-esque intolerance was not intended in that original statement.
I know where the religious intolerance idea originates, but at the same time other religions do exist in the Pale. In the capital city even. Later products also point out that there are other faiths in The Pale, namely the Flan faiths in general, and those of the Oeridian agricultural gods. And those would be the more common ones. There are probably a few others here and there outside of those that are also worshiped (just not very much).
So, not much of a point to debate here, other than to say that the vast majority of people in the Pale are Pholtans, and non-Pholtans are generally not treated all that well. When people are not treated well, and the state itself supports it, the maltreated will generally gravitate to areas beyond the immediate influence of the state/those treating them like crap. Which sort of leads us right to where we are- the village.
And so I chose to locate it where I did for a two reasons:
1. It is actually not technically in The Pale, and therefore not subject to the full-on Pholtan "schtick". In fact, the area is not even neutral- it is Nyrondese territory (yes, I needed a reminder of this too), which really makes things even better so far as a creative palette is concerned (at least in my opinion).
2. The dark and oh so scary forest is home to elves and gnomes who very much would tell any Pholtan that they can go sew socks in hell, because they are not about to give up worship of their own racial gods (or any others they choose to follow). The dark and scary forest, where the light of the sun and moon is rather dim, meaning the Blinding Light of Pholtus is rather dim.
All that being said, the village is not too far into the woods, so a Pholtan presence is being allowed for. Think about the reality of things and you will see that allowing for the merest Pholtan presence at all is not a slap to the face, but a true generosity. The villagers are Nyrondese, and they would probably see any Pholtan presence at all in their village, which is within the borders of Nyrond, as The Pale overstepping its bounds and seeking to impose their religion (and rule) upon territory that does not belong to them. That probably wouldn't go over so well with frontier folk (whom their king tends to leave alone), let alone the King of Nyrond and his armies. Yes, allowing for a Pholtan presence at all is very generous indeed, because, considering all of the factors, a complete lack of Pholtan presence is not only sensible but very believable. And yet I still don't rule it out completely, because a few exceptions here and there are what keeps things interesting.
With all of that in mind, please progress if you will. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
Last edited by Cebrion on Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:24 am; edited 4 times in total
So now that the political soap box has been sundered... heheh
who takes what? To be honest I'm a clean slate so don't wish to take a slot someone else has an idea chisled-out around. If I (and probably others ) can get a feel as to who intends what... the collective rest (myself in this bunch) can frame around those keystones....
That's what I've been thinking, otherwise, there's going to be some double entries. That's a waste of time and effort.
Exactly... not to say there might not be 3 or 4 Joe the Farmer, for healthy competition at the market. but in a town of 400 there is not likely to be 4 or 5 taverns...
1) What about a general carpenter? Maybe his specialty is in one thing (housing carpenter, cooper, arkwight, wheelwright), but with some skills in the others?
There are only few buildings, many of which will have sprung up over time, so a full-on carpenter would be out of place. Who exactly would need to hire them? The answer- nobody. More on this in a bit though. As to a cooper, one is not really needed in this community. Water does not need to be stored, and food can be preserved in a few ways for the winter (salting, canning, pickling, root cellar, ice house).
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The blacksmith could be a blacksmith/farrier.
I think this goes without saying, as blacksmiths don't just make horseshoes, they put them on too. That is pretty standard work for a blacksmith. Only cities and large towns would have a full-on farrier who is nothing but a farrier, as that would require hundreds of horses around for such an individual to stay in business. This does go to what I was getting at above, which is that, in a small village such as this, one person may end up being bets suited to perform related jobs. the blacksmith could even be the wainwright as you suggest. More of a handy man type of individual who is a jack-of-a-few-trades, masterful-enough-to serve-the-community. Basically, don't expect this guy to make you any finely crafted metalwork or woodwork, but basic everyday stuff he can handle. That would include repairing armor/sharpening weapons, but making anything more complicated than farming tools, spears, daggers, metal banded clubs, hand axes, and such would be right out.
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2) So much for my gnome glassblower.
So, the gnome who assists the blacksmith/farrier/wainwright is for some reason unable to also use the forge area to blow glass? Poor bugger. Somebody will have to break the news to him that he cannot exist.
Mystic-Scholar wrote:
...I also have to wonder about the economy, given that Adventurers would hardly stop in a place that subsisted solely on barter -- no reason to sell, or trade their treasure. It would serve only as a place to acquire food and rest...
While barter might be common among the people who live in the village (or the demi-humans nearby), when dealing with outsiders visiting the village they would more likely sell stuff to them. This goes for when the villagers deal with other outsiders too, such as when traveling to larger towns to sell crops, animal skins, rare woods or herbs that grow in the dense forest, and even goods that they have acquired from the elves, gnomes, and few halflings of the Gamboge, which they can trade onwards at a profit to outsiders. This doesn't take into account any other crafts that might be made at the village, such as scrimshaw, blown glass (hehe), etc. Considering the size of the village, there probably wouldn't be much more than this.
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-My question is, two temples and five shrines for population of 267?
And I thought Dover, TN had a lot of churches!
I said chapels, not temples. Country chapels are basically simple one room buildings about 15 ft. x 25 ft. at the most, and in a place like this they may very well be only 15ft. x 20 ft. Not very big. If they even have any sort of statuary, it will be small and probably made of carved (and perhaps painted) wood. Some lovingly carved wooden trim here and there wouldn't be out of place either. And when I say "shrine", I don't mean something of the complexity of a Buddhist shrine, as in a structure with a large stone/gilt statue inside of it. This isn't a big population center where such a thing would be more appropriate. These are simple folk, so I mean something along the lines of a roadside shrine. These shrines are very, very simple places that likely fit within a 5 ft. cubic area, if that, and they surely are not all located within the village proper. A few people might gather at a shrine on holy days, and otherwise leave small offerings of flowers or some other tokens at them. The chapels might have a few dozen people at them at a time, on holy days, and the priests will either live inside the chapel (in a loft area most likely) or in a simple attached (or separate) structure.
Dark_Lord_Galen wrote:
Mystic-Scholar wrote:
That's what I've been thinking, otherwise, there's going to be some double entries. That's a waste of time and effort.
Exactly... not to say there might not be 3 or 4 Joe the Farmer, for healthy competition at the market. but in a town of 400 there is not likely to be 4 or 5 taverns...
There will be no double entries. After all of the ideas are put forth, I will collect them up an make a final list of what is in the village. Then we'll see who wants to do what, though I won't rule out that some things may be assigned based on the level of interest/whose idea it was. We can always throw more than one person at a location too, such that they can develop differing aspects of it together.
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-Whoever takes the Inn, or at this point, the Tavern where you're allowed to sleep in the barn for 1 sp, has a major project, and should be willing to take input from others, since that's usually the first place the mighty adventurers go. FWIW, I'd put it next to the farrier and one of the two wells.
This will very likely be the case. This village isn't exactly a crossroads like Hommlet, so the villagers' idea of an "inn" will probably be any sort of building with an extra room or two that could be turned out to somebody passing through.
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-In a forest, I'm not sure big scale farming would be ideal. I'm willing to take the older guy who is pig herder. I'll have to think about his family. Born there, or new arrival?
You must not be very familiar with how the West was won. Trees get cut down, stumps get chopped out, and fires are built in the holes, which turn the remaining ground roots to ash (which good for the soil even). Then in come the plows and the fields are planted. Any forest can be turned to farmland. More than half the families of the village should be farmers, namely those who raise plants and/or animals, as opposed to gardeners who just raise plants (a little extra learnin' for you citified folks ).
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What sort of trees and plants are common in the Gamboge? I don't have my references with me, but the Gamboge must have plenty oak trees for acorn feeding for the swine. Maybe truffle hunting?
Hmmm... 267 people in 45 families. You'll probably need at least 20 families producing food (maybe 35), unless there's some heavy duty magical assistance. Is there anyone in the village powerful enough to moderate the weather, or take care of pests and crop blight?
Cebrion wrote:
...The village is overseen by a village elder. Along with twenty of the older boys in the village, thirty of the men of the village form the village's rangers/watch/militia, depending on their individual skills, though only about one fourth of them is on duty at any one time, as they have their own families/farms/business to take care of...
- About 50 weekend warriors. A lot of watch service would be spent maintaining the palisade and ditch. Id still like a shot at a Commoner 2/Fighter 1 (or Ranger or Scout 1?). Maybe the pig herder could be the first sergeant? I'd need to see where other people are going with classes, levels and whatnot to make sure he "fits".
We haven't gotten to the farmers much yet, which there will be plenty of. A pig farmer in the forest? Sure. I bet at least one is a prized truffle-finding pig.
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Cebrion wrote:
...One feature of note is a large tree located near the center of the village, which the village children are encouraged to play about...
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-The tree would also be where the militia/watch musters, if necessary.
Sure.
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Any chance it's a magical tree? Or too cliched?
No. Some trees are just there to encourage young children not to go off into the woods where they can get hurt/nabbed/baked in an oven by a witch/eaten by a wolf/etc.
One other bit: many of the farmers will also be capable hunters, as it is a simple necessity. in pinch, the village's 50 defenders can probably be double to 100 able enough defenders. Also, these folk will probably be fairly healthy. The people work for living, so will be in decent shape most of the time. Only in times of disease, famine, or some similar event will they be less healthy. They have many more resources available to them than plains farmers do, so they should be well off enough most of the time.
2) So much for my gnome glassblower. ................................. As the population grows (catalyst?), a varied economy develops; maybe they'll be a place for that glassblower after all. As it grows, it might gain the attention of the Pale, and then the Valorous League might show up ca. CY 584, with results TBD...
Disagree James... perhaps he/she doesn't want to contend with what a bigger town would entail? Guilds, etc. Maybe its in close proximity to a prime ingredent? ie loamy sand from the nearby river that gives the end product that special sheen? And besides, like early frontiermen, could just trying to stake out his "claim" before the rush so to speak.
jamesdglick wrote:
-My question is, two temples and five shrines for population of 267?
TBD...
Does seem a bit much, but hey if any have been to my part of the world... they dont call it the bible belt for nothin..... church on everycorner.
jamesdglick wrote:
Hmmm... 267 people in 45 families. You'll probably need at least 20 families producing food (maybe 35), unless there's some heavy duty magical assistance. ...
True but this would also vary based on resources and climate.... I dont think your 35 number is off by much.
jamesdglick wrote:
-The tree would also be where the militia/watch musters, if neccessary....................
Any chance it's a magical tree? Or too cliched?
certainly the stuff adventure hooks are made from... Maybe not the tree... maybe a Dryad's summer home? hehehe "Well *&^%%&* (incert Fey Explitive here) look who has moved into the neighborhood!!!"
Whoever takes the Inn, or at this point, thye Tavern where you're allowed to sleep in the barn for 1 sp, has a major project, and should be willing to take input from others . . .
What? Now each individual project needs to be a collaboration? Sorry, but whatever I end up writing up, will be mine and mine alone. If "you" don't like it, don't use it.
I'm willing to collaborate on the village, I'm not collaborating on individual establishments. Just doing the village will take long enough, given everyone's varying schedules. I'm not waiting days, or weeks, to hear back from someone who thinks they're entitled to offer an opinion on my work before it's published.
I've sent work to some here, posting on this very thread, after they agreed -- or offered -- to "proof read" it. I have never heard back from them -- and it's been months, or more.
Disagree James... perhaps he/she doesn't want to contend with what a bigger town would entail? Guilds, etc. Maybe its in close proximity to a prime ingredent? ie loamy sand from the nearby river that gives the end product that special sheen? And besides, like early frontiermen, could just trying to stake out his "claim" before the rush so to speak...
1) I thought of the "prime sand" idea, but I'm not a geologist. I'll take anyone else's insight. I believe there's a certain Irongater who might have some insight...
2) I can see showing up early to stake a claim, and gnomes are long lived, but given the current transportation to market, this would have to be a really long range plan...
Dark_Lord_Galen wrote:
...True but this would also vary based on resources and climate.... I dont think your 35 number is off by much...
-One other possibility would be that the food is carted in, but given the rutted trail net, I guess that's out. If it was carted in, and they're not connected to the Palish government, they'd have to pay/trade for it somehow: Doing what?
Mystic-Scholar wrote:
The village is a collaboration... Sorry, but whatever I end up writing up, will be mine and mine alone. If "you" don't like it, don't use it...
-I'm egotistical enough to want other people to use it.
I'm not saying that 20 different posters get a year to pick apart my offering, for 2 reasons:
1) The practical objections you've already mentioned;
2) If you have 20 different posters, you'll have 20 (or more ) different opinions, and you can't please everyone. You have to draw the line somewhere.
But using my pig herder as an example, if his daughter is married to the innkeeper (if we have one), then I'd like to collaborate with whoever is writing that up. That way, it "makes sense" that the woman who is the pig herder's daughter is his daughter, and the innkeepers wife is his wife i.e., they mesh. I assume that the pig herder serves in that militia/watch whatever; I imagine him being the first sergeant. But what if he's not the most experienced guy? Or someone else is just more popular (or however they're chosen)? Some collaboration would make everything mesh better. Otherwise, we could hit a lot of false notes.
Another example: If I actually do the glassblower, I'd have to see what sort of transport he'd have avaliable (I don't think he'd have his own). Is anyone going to do a carter? Or a muleskinner? Maybe he just hires a farmer to transport his goods to market. Which one? That implies some sort of friendly relationship, but maybe not. I'd like to work that out with whoever is working on that farmer (or carter or whatever). If the glassblower takes a human apprentice, whose son is that apprentice? More collaboration.
Besides, I've never done this here before, but I understand that there's some sort of acceptance process anyway. So why not?
Anyway, I'd like your input...
BTW, any idea what the proportion of human/half-elf/elf/gnome/whatever will be? I'm not advocating down to a precise number, but some sort of understanding would help. I imagine it being majority human, with a lot of half-elves, elves, and gnomes, plus a few others. Any "odd" races? Ents? Friendly half-ogres? DLG's dryad? A brownie in someone's house? Personally, I'd rather keep "weird" stuff to a minimum, but that's just me.
But using my pig herder as an example, if his daughter is married to the innkeeper . . .
To me, you're wanting to give "more" background to too many "lesser" people, backgrounds they don't need. They're not "major" characters.
"My daughter's married to the Inn Keeper." Enough said . . . from you. The rest belongs to the guy writing-up the Inn. It's not for the writer of the farmer to say that the daughter is this, or that. How would he know her true function at the Inn: i.e. 2nd lvl Thief? He wouldn't.
So, for you, writing up your Farmer; "My daughter is married to the Inn Keeper," is all you need to write. If the person writing-up the Inn wishes to collaborate with you in that regard -- say, coming up with a childhood reason as to why she's missing her left hand -- that's for the two of you to P.M. about. It's nothing that needs to be agreed to, or discussed here.
... don't be too fixated on the Pholtan Gestapo angle of things, as that sort of presence, even considering later material, is going to be almost unheard of in what is essentially a neutral frontier area. The Pholtan Gestapo has plenty to attend to in the more populated areas of the Pale anyways...
-Fright at Tristor details a village in the northern Pale. The emphasis is more small town busy body rather than "the knock in the middle of te night." In the past, some of the people in the town lynched a group of Land Rhennee becuse they sold them some bogus potions that killed and blinded a bunch of people, not because they had the wrong religion (or no religion).
In EGG's first Gord book, the army was chasing Gord because he seduced a cleric's daughter and stole some altar items, not because he missed Godsday services.
Mystic-Scholar wrote:
...So, for you, writing up your Farmer; "My daughter is married to the Inn Keeper," is all you need to write. If the person writing-up the Inn wishes to collaborate with you in that regard -- say, coming up with a childhood reason as to why she's missing her left hand -- that's for the two of you to P.M. about. It's nothing that needs to be agreed to, or discussed here...
-I could do by PM, but why not get more eyes on it? It's not like it has to be hidden. I can take other peoples advice or leave it, and I won't wait forever, but why not listen to other people's ideas?
Hmmm... any chance you'd like to work on the hermit?
I think that is very workable in such a small village in an area that attracts folk that are looking to distance themselves from the less tolerant metropolitan areas of the Pale. If there are 45 families in the village and ten of those families worship Pelor, that would be enough to build a small stone church (about the size of a four room house). We're not talking about cathedrals here. If another ten, or so, families worship Beory, they would have the man-power to build themselves a nicely sized wooden church large enough for all of them to gather in for worship. The five shrines may only be attended by a single family or three. They may even be right in front of the worshipping family's home. I'm thinking of the madona in front of a bathtub halfway in the ground type of yard art I see in many Catholic's yards. That is a very simple shrine and could be very similar to what those five are in our village. Most people don't even notice them, but a worshipper of the god or goddess it represents would recognize it for what it is as soon as s/he saw it.
As to projects, most of them will stand on their own. If, for example, the innkeeper's daughter is married to anyone, whoever writes up the inn will write up who the husband is as well (who will not likely be linked to some other notable location, and simply just help to run the inn).
I may end up taking a few things on. Not sure yet. People are encouraged to take on more than one thing, though by that I mean add in two or so mundane farmsteads to another more interesting entry. That way quite a bit will be fleshed out by merely 10 people taking part in this. It is perfectly okay if too few locations are detailed though- that is what DMs are for.
Gamboge Forest Information
Here is what we know from the Folio/83' WoG Boxed Set:
Sadly, the early material doesn't tell us much about the Gamboge Forest, other than its population and political leanings- Nyrond claims it, The Pale wants it (for resources, not stake burning victims; that's just a bonus), the populace is fiercely independent, though sides with Nyrond because The Pale's intentions are seen as intolerable at best. Some folk in the woods are even savvy enough to display Nyrondese flags in warning to forces of The Pale to keep out. It doesn't hurt that Nyrond is full of elves and gnomes too, so there is some sympathy there no doubt. There are quite few things living in these woods, both potential allies and nasty critters and other...things. The woods could be hiding almost anything, even this close to the more civilized lands. People probably go missing in the woods often enough.
Population: 7,000 (humans)
Demi-humans: Sylvan Elves (11,000), Gnomes (3,000), High Elves (1,500), Halflings (probably just a few hundred)
Humanoids: Some (notably hobgoblins and ogres)
"It (the Gamboge Forest) is an old and especially dense forest."
We don't even know what kind of unique Greyhawk trees are in the Gamboge. LAME!
...and so we skip ahead to some later material, just so that there is something to make use of.
From the Ashes Info
The population numbers are tweaked downwards a bit, and there is a bit more info on how the Gambogefolk view things. Other than that, we have a few things:
"This remains a relatively peaceful enclave, ready to trade wood, fruits, nuts, tubers, and the like with Nyrond on terms highly favorable to that impoverished nation."
There is even a small adventure hook on p. 76 that revolves around the importance of what the Gambogefolk supply to Nyrond, which goes to the economics of the village. There is another mention of the western Gamboge being wooded hills rich in gems and minerals. That is probably where you will find a lot of the forest's gnomes, as well as in the eastern Gamboge where it blend into the Flinty Hills (there are dwarves there too). There is also mention of "a turkeylike flightless bird imported from the Gamboge forest." The Nyrondese spokesman in the CoGH has a brother who pays his tab, that being "...Clymad is a 6th-level CG ranger who rarely visits the Free City from his own base in the Gamboge Forest..."
Once again, no information on any of the unique GH trees? Seriously?
I can (sadly) skip The Adventure Begins and the Players Guide to Greyhawk, as they offer little to nothing at all. Which leaves us the D&D Gazetteer...which has has nothing to add to what we already know.
And so that brings us to the final offering...
Living Greyhawk Gazetteer Info
"Thousands of of humans, gnomes, and sylvan and high elves live here among the bronzewood, oak, elm, and hornwood trees."
About freakin' time! And so I make the executive decision that we will use this later material as a part of our baseline, as it is the baseline for this information.
Oh, and apparently the elves in the Gamboge are flat out deadly archers (but aren't they always).
And so we now know enough about the overall area that this village occupies, and its background. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
Last edited by Cebrion on Fri May 31, 2013 6:42 am; edited 2 times in total
I thought I would throw this in... knowing we have visited the
A> Geography
B> The General Political tendancies
C> The General Philosophical & Religeous postures
D> The Timeline
One common element in any story is a common uniting protagonist and antagonist. While the protagonists are certainly the PCs that are to come and the NPCs we create... who is the local areas Dark Shadowy Figure? There are certainly regional plot elements for this advisery to be the intermedeary for....
Is he/ she undermining the hold Nyrod has on the Area for The Pale?
Does he/she dupe the PCs unknowingly into doing his work for him? By What means?
Is He / She a Warren of the Province to whom tithe is collected from the village for Nyrod's protection? Does he abuse such powers?
Is She a Stalwart defender of the people but oblivious to the threats?
Etc.
My Point is by have One or Two off table NPCs (ie 3-5 level) as Intermediaries to the Bigger Picture of the Realm, it gives us all a middle ground motivator to focus to... just a thought.
Somehow or other, my post got hijacked by someone's answers to my post (with my name still on it), and my original post gone.
CEBRION!
Quote:
...I think this goes without saying, as blacksmiths don't just make horseshoes, they put them on too. That is pretty standard work for a blacksmith...
-I suspect it wouldn't be for Dwarven or Gnomish blacksmiths.
For this reason (and I know that this is non-edition specific), for D&D 3.5 I assume that Craft (Blacksmithing) is different from (Profession) Farrier i.e., you have to spend points for both.
Come to think of it, that may explain why Dwarven smiths are supposed to be so great at general blacksmithing- they don't bother with horse-shoeing!
Quote:
...So much for my gnome glassblower.
So, the gnome who assists the blacksmith/farrier/wainwright is for some reason unable to also use the forge area to blow glass? Poor bugger. Somebody will have to break the news to him that he cannot exist...[/quote]
-That assumes that the blacksmith has or needs an apprentice...
The main issue is, yeah, he could do the work, but an immediate market of 266 other people in the woods isn't exactly the greatest market, unless one of those chapels needs a lot of stained glass windows (possible reason for him to arrive on site, then stay? Hmmm... Who is doing the chapels?). Woodsedge, Abbotsford, and Stradestt aren't much better, and they're over bad roads, and in the Pale, with which most of the villagers seem to be on less than friendly terms (not that that entirely prevents trade, but...). Sending stuff through a woodland trail to Nyrond isn't much better. Now, if the roads improved...
Quote:
You must not be very familiar with how the West was won. Trees get cut down, stumps get chopped out, and fires are built in the holes, which turn the remaining ground roots to ash (which good for the soil even)...
Quote:
-The problem is, I am (sort of). The ash gives increased fertility for a year or two, then you're left with the underlying topsoil. Frequently, that topsoil is of a nature that erodes quickly (the village was founded in CY 487, so...). That leaves two possibilities, unless we want to see a cleric of Phyton crying:
1) To maintain fertility, the farmers would have to do slash and burn agriculture, shifting location every three or four years, and (IIRC) the soil would take 20-30 years to replenish (if someone has better figures, let me know). In that case, we don't have a village, but a roving farming camp (which might be an interesting idea);
2) The underlying soil is fertile, and other plants are in place to evode erosion. IIRC, acidic Ph isn't good for most grain (but is good for tomatoes!). The soil of coniferous trees tends to the acidic, but that shouldn't be a problem with oak or elm, and I assume hornwood and bronzewood would be the same. So no problem there (I think).
Are we going with option two?
Loamy soil with a Ph of 7.0?
...We haven't gotten to the farmers much yet, which there will be plenty of. A pig farmer in the forest? Sure. I bet at least one is a prized truffle-finding pig...
Quote:
-Done!
Well, it will be.
Dark_Lord_Galen wrote:
I thought I would throw this in... knowing we have visited the ... The General Philosophical & Religeous postures....
-Seems to be all over the place: Flann Gods (all over the place), Oeridian Agricultural Gods (non-E; not LG), Pholtus (LG and LN). Probably a mix, except no one would be straight up Evil, unless they hid it well. You could have someone who tilts Evil e.g., N (NE), though. But that's OK.
...One other bit: many of the farmers will also be capable hunters, as it is a simple necessity. in pinch, the village's 50 defenders can probably be double to 100 able enough defenders. Also, these folk will probably be fairly healthy. The people work for living, so will be in decent shape most of the time. Only in times of disease, famine, or some similar event will they be less healthy. They have many more resources available to them than plains farmers do, so they should be well off enough most of the time.
-Most would have a CON of at least 12? Otherwise, they'd be dead, or have fled.
IMC, most people have a 12 CON or higher anyway (disease/parasitic infection, heat & cold, hunger & thirst, and fatigue are considerations).
Dark_Lord_Galen wrote:
...My Point is by have One or Two off table NPCs (ie 3-5 level) as Intermediaries to the Bigger Picture of the Realm, it gives us all a middle ground motivator to focus to... just a thought.
-This isn't your main point, but I intend to keep my basic descriptions generic, and then put classes, stats, etc in the notes (in AD&D1 and D&D 3.5 form) so that anyone can use those editions, or convert to their need.
Nonetheless, do we have any ideas for a "typical" class and level spread as a baseline? I think the FTA supplement detailing the Gnarley Forest had 75% of the inhabitants as 1st level rangers or higher (IIRC). There was also something in Ivid The Undying which gave spreads for the Adri, the Grandwood, and the Lone Heath. I don't think the northern Gamboge is as besieged as the others, so it they would probably tilt that way. Older guys would tend to be higher levels, younger guys 1st level (or 0 level, for pre-D&D 3.0), but not neccessarily.
Somehow or other, my post got hijacked by someone's answers to my post (with my name still on it), and my original post gone.
CEBRION!
Wah? D'oh!!! I hit "Edit" instead of "Quote". I don't think I wiped out too much of anything fortunately.
Dark_Lord_Galen wrote:
One common element in any story is a common uniting protagonist and antagonist. While the protagonists are certainly the PCs that are to come and the NPCs we create... who is the local areas Dark Shadowy Figure?
Don''t anybody worry about anything like this, at least at this point. The village may not have any sort of Dark Shadow Figure at all. Such a figure may lurk outside of the village. Think of the village more as a launching point for adventure, not the adventure site itself.
jamesdglick wrote:
Quote:
...I think this goes without saying, as blacksmiths don't just make horseshoes, they put them on too. That is pretty standard work for a blacksmith...
-I suspect it wouldn't be for Dwarven or Gnomish blacksmiths.
No, but making horseshoes is very easy, and tack and harness are not something that any blacksmith, regardless of race, will be unable to make either. Strips of leather, rivets, and buckles are things any blacksmith can make and assemble.
jamesdglick wrote:
For this reason (and I know that this is non-edition specific), for D&D 3.5 I assume that Craft (Blacksmithing) is different from (Profession) Farrier i.e., you have to spend points for both.
Nope. "Blacksmith" covers it all. A blacksmith who does farrier work will will just likely also have skill ranks in Handle Animal is all (though it is not really required for trained animals).
jamesdglick wrote:
Come to think of it, that may explain why Dwarven smiths are supposed to be so great at general blacksmithing- they don't bother with horse-shoeing!
jamesdglick wrote:
They probably don't bother with it because they don't ride horses in drwarven holds/gnomish warrens. Any such individuals living outside of such places would know the basics though, as it is bread and butter business.
Quote:
...So much for my gnome glassblower.
So, the gnome who assists the blacksmith/farrier/wainwright is for some reason unable to also use the forge area to blow glass? Poor bugger. Somebody will have to break the news to him that he cannot exist...
-That assumes that the blacksmith has or needs an apprentice...
The main issue is, yeah, he could do the work, but an immediate market of 266 other people in the woods isn't exactly the greatest market, unless one of those chapels needs a lot of stained glass windows (possible reason for him to arrive on site, then stay? Hmmm... Who is doing the chapels?).
A glass blower's stock in trade is not making stained glass, though if they can't do that as well, they are not much of a glass worker. Glass blowers make glasses, mugs, and, more importantly, jars and bottles (i.e. vessels to store food and drink in). Besides, there are not temples in the village, but country chapels which will usually be very simple. These chapels could be special for their stained glass though, but the pigments to create some colors of stained glass might not readily be available, so perhaps the gnome travels into the Pale and elsewhere to get some of the more rare ones. It adds extra back story simply to mention something like this, and perhaps will serve an adventure hook, so it is good to include such simple, seemingly unimportant info.
Quote:
You must not be very familiar with how the West was won. Trees get cut down, stumps get chopped out, and fires are built in the holes, which turn the remaining ground roots to ash (which is good for the soil even)...
Quote:
-The problem is, I am (sort of). The ash gives increased fertility for a year or two, then you're left with the underlying topsoil. Frequently, that topsoil is of a nature that erodes quickly (the village was founded in CY 487, so...). That leaves two possibilities, unless we want to see a cleric of Phyton crying:
1) To maintain fertility, the farmers would have to do slash and burn agriculture, shifting location every three or four years, and (IIRC) the soil would take 20-30 years to replenish (if someone has better figures, let me know). In that case, we don't have a village, but a roving farming camp (which might be an interesting idea);
2) The underlying soil is fertile, and other plants are in place to evade erosion. IIRC, acidic Ph isn't good for most grain (but is good for tomatoes!). The soil of coniferous trees tends to the acidic, but that shouldn't be a problem with oak or elm, and I assume hornwood and bronzewood would be the same. So no problem there (I think).
Are we going with option two?
Loamy soil with a Ph of 7.0?
Well of course course it will be option 2, as the Gamboge is exceptionally dense (little to no no erosion), ash trees are not the only trees in the area, and it is not like there are not bushes and other vegetation that grow, drops leaves, and composts the soil further to create what has been, and continues to be an optimal environment for growing things. Add in some good ol' country know-how and the farmers here will be doing rather well, with the cleared land allowing in sunlight, and the walls of trees acting as wind breaks in storms. It is good set-up for growing things.
Dark_Lord_Galen wrote:
I thought I would throw this in... knowing we have visited the ... The General Philosophical & Religeous postures....
-Seems to be all over the place: Flann Gods (all over the place), Oeridian Agricultural Gods (non-E; not LG), Pholtus (LG and LN). Probably a mix, except no one would be straight up Evil, unless they hid it well. You could have someone who tilts Evil e.g., N (NE), though. But that's OK.
General philosophy would probably be mostly CG with some NG and NN, and with a smattering of CN. LN and LG would likely be rare, and evil alignments would be hidden. Humanoids are pretty well hated, so there probably is not a single half-orc in the village. Pholtus will either be minimally present, or not present at all (the more likely option considering the political climate and the general anti-Pale sentiment of the Gambogefolk). People ought to propose two main village gods for the chapels and 5 gods for the shrines, just to get that squared away.
jamesdglick wrote:
Quote:
...One other bit: many of the farmers will also be capable hunters, as it is a simple necessity. in pinch, the village's 50 defenders can probably be double to 100 able enough defenders. Also, these folk will probably be fairly healthy. The people work for living, so will be in decent shape most of the time. Only in times of disease, famine, or some similar event will they be less healthy. They have many more resources available to them than plains farmers do, so they should be well off enough most of the time.
-Most would have a CON of at least 12? Otherwise, they'd be dead, or have fled.
IMC, most people have a 12 CON or higher anyway (disease/parasitic infection, heat & cold, hunger & thirst, and fatigue are considerations).
Average CON is 10-11. Hardier folk probably have a 12-13, with the most fit being in the 14-15 range. A few freaks of nature may be in the 16+ range. Only the weak (or old) or sickly will be in the 8-9 range, with not many being being below that (the very old/weak).
Dark_Lord_Galen wrote:
...My Point is by have One or Two off table NPCs (ie 3-5 level) as Intermediaries to the Bigger Picture of the Realm, it gives us all a middle ground motivator to focus to... just a thought.
We already have one potential outside NPC. Seeing as outsiders are not part of the village though, there is little need to consider them at this point. Concentrate on the village itself.
jamesdglick wrote:
Nonetheless, do we have any ideas for a "typical" class and level spread as a baseline? I think the FTA supplement detailing the Gnarley Forest had 75% of the inhabitants as 1st level rangers or higher (IIRC). There was also something in Ivid The Undying which gave spreads for the Adri, the Grandwood, and the Lone Heath. I don't think the northern Gamboge is as besieged as the others, so it they would probably tilt that way. Older guys would tend to be higher levels, younger guys 1st level (or 0 level, for pre-D&D 3.0), but not neccessarily.
Don't worry about it at this point. Think in terms of average (or slightly above average) folk, and be prepared to write accordingly. Stats of any kind are a secondary consideration at this point. Everyone can develop their basic info without them. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
So, after having rolled some dice (yes, I really did), the population will be made up of 267 hardy souls (about 45 families, plus other individuals). This will actually be quite a few people, considering that the village is in the Gamboge Forest
&
Cebrion wrote:
Population: 7,000 (humans)
Demi-humans: Sylvan Elves (11,000), Gnomes (3,000), High Elves (1,500), Halflings (probably just a few hundred)
Humanoids: Some (notably hobgoblins and ogres)
So, being the left-brained engineer, (meaning I cant help but be analitical) These two groups of values can be cross-compared to give us a population mix for the homlet villagers and for the humaniods perhaps located in the region for the larger grouping of numbers and in the case of the smaller numbers, the local area around.
This, of course, is linear and assumes both the "resident" populations are equal. It further assumes that the elves being the dominant race within the region is also the dominant race within the homlet. But hey, gotta start somewhere. For the humaniods using the 22900 population value as even (assuming the area is still in dispute as to whom asserts dominance, in this case equal), and using the percentages based on common occurance of encounter to determine saturations.
This linear approach seems to be in line with Big Cs family count (47 vs 45)
and using the same framework gives us the rough percentage for family structures of the local humanoid populations as well.
I present this as an option to the tendency to populate towns as being primarily human, since that is most peoples' natural habit, and in this case the regional population is not. Of course, it could also be expained as a "new" settlement not aligned with the local populace, ie great american west migrations vs indians.
Now we could escalate/de-escalate the humaniod populations based on regional density, other motivators, etc, and that gets into more sub-evaluations. Poll??? heheh:???:(Just KIDDING) Personally, I just think it gives our new "heros" some playmates.
In this case,
A hobgoblin Tribe with 15 families and 19 Warrior Singles
An Ogre Clan with 6 Families and 7 Warrior Singles
A Couple Goblin Tribes with 7 gangs and 14 Warrior Singles
A Kobold Clutch with 6 Families and 14 Warrior Singles
The "other" catagory could include creatures such as bugbears, or trolls since they commonly frequent as subplanted leaders of these type of humaniods and are indigenous to the area as well.
(Argon's Trolls have a home )
So as some have said... use it don't use it... either is fine.
. . .the pigments to create some colors of stained glass might not readily be available, so perhaps the gnome travels into the Pale and elsewhere to get some of the more rare ones.
The pigment for Tyrian purple -- a.k.a "Royal Purple" -- is a reddish-purple natural dye. It is a secretion produced by a species of predatory sea snails in the Muricidae family In particular, a type of rock snail that goes by the name Murex. It is thought that this dye was first used by the ancient Phoenicians -- capital city of Tyre, thus the name -- as early as 1600 BC. The dye was greatly prized in antiquity because the colour did not easily fade, but instead became brighter with weathering and sunlight.
In ancient Egypt, the color White was produced from crushed bone, or ivory. The color Black was produced from soot, or "lamp black." They produced Red from the dried bodies of female scale insects of the family Coccidae, of the genus Kermes.
Indigo, a dark blue color, was created from wode, a leguminous which has pods and root nodules, obtained in Asia. Madder lake was created from the fleshy roots of the madder plant obtained around the Mediterranean. Madder lake is a dark reddish-purple color, similar to the modern pigment Alizarin crimson.
So, while some pigments could be obtained locally, I foresee that most such pigments would need to be imported and from quite a distance.
First, I believe this would require too large an operation and too large a clientele for the type of village we are envisioning here. Such merchant traffic would hardly go "unnoticed" and would make our village far from a "little known" locale.
Secondly, a Glassblower of such skill and expertise, making stained glass -- or even substantial amounts of glassware -- would unquestionably attract the attention of every Noble and "wealthy person" within a hundred miles, or more!
Sorry, James, but a Glass-blowing Gnome would do much to put our village "on the map," as they say. We would not be the "little, out of the way" place that Cebrion envisions. The Glass-blower belongs in a "larger" city then what our village will be. _________________ Mystic's web page: http://melkot.com/mysticscholar/index.html
Mystic's blog page: http://mysticscholar.blogspot.com/
Reference > Assorted Various non-edition specific D&D Resources (ie original DMG, Wilderness Survivial Guide, LG reference sources, and of course those afformentioned tomes of Big C)
&
Life in a Medievial Village by Frances & Joseph Gies (if you dont have a copy Its a good read)
located here
And since the Forest and its exotic woods are a "commodity" it would seem that a Bowyer, Carpenter, Furniture Maker, Wheelwright, and Woodseller are certainly appropriate for the Export. The other's are what would support the survival of the Homlet. As for the infamous glassblower, maybe he is retiring and while at one point in his career he was a famous artisan within the guild weaving the mysteries of stainglass.. and now is just trying to quietly settle away from some of those famed demands? Just an option.
...This, of course, is linear and assumes both the "resident" populations are equal. It further assumes that the elves being the dominant race within the region is also the dominant race within the homlet. But hey, gotta start somewhere...
-Since it's on the fringe, fewer elves, particularly sylvan elves, and more humans.
Cebrion wrote:
...The village is overseen by a village elder. Along with twenty of the older boys in the village, thirty of the men of the village form the village's rangers/watch/militia, depending on their individual skills, though only about one fourth of them is on duty at any one time, as they have their own families/farms/business to take care of...
...at least a few of whom (along with some older girls) can be described by age as potential PCs...
Cebrion wrote:
...A glass blower's stock in trade is not making stained glass, though if they can't do that as well, they are not much of a glass worker. Glass blowers make glasses, mugs, and, more importantly, jars and bottles (i.e. vessels to store food and drink in... Besides, there are not temples in the village, but country chapels which will usually be very simple. These chapels could be special for their stained glass though, but the pigments to create some colors of stained glass might not readily be available, so perhaps the gnome travels into the Pale and elsewhere to get some of the more rare ones. It adds extra back story simply to mention something like this, and perhaps will serve an adventure hook, so it is good to include such simple, seemingly unimportant info...
-For a glassblower to uproot and move based on work, it would have to be a serious project.
-As per M-S:
Mystic-Scholar wrote:
...First, I believe this would require too large an operation and too large a clientele for the type of village we are envisioning here. Such merchant traffic would hardly go "unnoticed" and would make our village far from a "little known" locale.
Secondly, a Glassblower of such skill and expertise, making stained glass -- or even substantial amounts of glassware -- would unquestionably attract the attention of every Noble and "wealthy person" within a hundred miles, or more!
Sorry, James, but a Glass-blowing Gnome would do much to put our village "on the map," as they say. We would not be the "little, out of the way" place that Cebrion envisions. The Glass-blower belongs in a "larger" city then what our village will be.
...I don't see much of a market in the village for a glassblower, at least in CY 576, and there are better places to export from. I now envision him as coming from the Flinty Hills, and although that's not a great place to export from, either, at least he wouldn't have to move...
As per DLG:
Dark_Lord_Galen wrote:
...And since the Forest and its exotic woods are a "commodity" it would seem that a Bowyer, Carpenter, Furniture Maker, Wheelwright, and Woodseller are certainly appropriate for the Export...
...I actually see a spot for a carpenter long before I see one for a glassblower.
Dark_Lord_Galen wrote:
jamesdglick wrote:
2) So much for my gnome glassblower...
Disagree James... like early frontiermen, could just trying to stake out his "claim" before the rush so to speak...
-That's a possibility, but he needs a rationale to find the place in the first place.
Dark_Lord_Galen wrote:
... As for the infamous glassblower, maybe he is retiring and while at one point in his career he was a famous artisan within the guild weaving the mysteries of stainglass.. and now is just trying to quietly settle away from some of those famed demands? Just an option.
-My original thought was that his older brother inherited the business, and he was the branch office. I imagined him older, having lived in the village for a while. Now, I think he might show up after CY 576 (i.e., an NPC who shows up later), making him much younger (an easy fix). I'd still need that initail rationale for arriving. Something stronger than "he likes the scenery."
Originally, I thought this would be a great chance to show some of the activities which are never shown. Every other village has a swordsmith who can make a masterwork bastard sword, but no glassblowers?
That still leaves the salt gatherers. Local salt lick?
Anyway, I now have my swine herding woodsman and his truffle hunting pig to work on!
It is perfectly reasonable, in the fantasy world of Greyhawk, that an author can create a rationale for anything s/he wants to include in any locale. If you want a gnomish glass-blower in a village like the one we're imagining, it is no great difficulty to invent a reason for him to be there. For example:
"Gem was her father's only daughter, but stubbornly insisted on following her older brothers example by learning their father's trade. Refusing all suitors while focusing on her craft, she soon became her father's finest apprentice. When her chauvanistic father awarded a prime contract for the Pholtan church in Stradsett to her oldest brother, Gem was furious. No amount of arguing convinced her father to change his decision, so Gem took matters more directly into her own hands. Secretly, she diluted the composition of the glass used by her brother for the project. This resulted in the weakened vials to burst when liquid was introduced to them. The church was not pleased and her father and brother lost much respect in the community. Fearing that her brother suspected her involvement, Gem collected her supplies in a cart and vacated her community in the Kron Hills. The next day, the community elders called for her arrest and questioning, only to discover her absence. A standing warrant for her arrest stands within the Kron Hills gnomish communities and she hopes to remain safe from discovery within the trees of the Gamboge.
Gem uses her secondary skills to make a living mining salt in a nearby lick, but has recently made contact with an elven wizard deeper in the woods who has contracted with her for potion vials and other glass instruments necessary for her laboratory."
Now, I need to come up with a back-story for a penetent Horned Devil that has grown angelic wings, hides its appearance behind illusionary magic, and works as the village healer and chief cleric of Pelor.
Every other village has a swordsmith who can make a masterwork bastard sword, but no glassblowers?
Well, I wouldn't go that far. "Every other village?" No, a Master Sword-smith who can fashion Masterwork swords is going to "want what he's worth." And he's not going to get that in a village, or even a town. He's going to be looking for a "city." Master Glassblowers too. These "men" know what their work is worth and they're not going to settle for less.
jamesdglick wrote:
That still leaves the salt gatherers. Local salt lick?
Forget where I read it, but there is that Salt Elemental living under the Phostwood. So, who knows? Like Cebrion said, no one is sure what the heck lives in "there!"
DLG: You've given us a list that has more careers on it than the villagre will have people!
Nice, Xaris, but have you ever been to one of those Renaissance fairs and watched real Glassblowers? It's a small industry -- meaning she can't do it in her kitchen. And where does she get the pigment? Magic? Not from a 3rd level magic user. Can she afford a 10th level (or higher) Wizard for that? Our little bitty, teeny weeny village has that high a level Wizard and no one knows it?
Nice, Xaris, but have you ever been to one of those Renaissance fairs and watched real Glassblowers? It's a small industry -- meaning she can't do it in her kitchen. And where does she get the pigment? Magic? Not from a 3rd level magic user. Can she afford a 10th level (or higher) Wizard for that? Our little bitty, teeny weeny village has that high a level Wizard and no one knows it?
We're starting to stretch it here just a bit. I'm beginning to second guess getting involved with this.
Boo! Buzzkill!
EGG, himself, included the 10th level Rannos and 7th level Gremag in the 1st - 3rd level adventure, The Village of Homlet.
DLG: You've given us a list that has more careers on it than the villagre will have people!
Hehe.. well thought it would be a good list to start to build and assign from... nothing says all are present, I just canibalized from a randomizer I have. Though...come to think of it maybe they are 1e dual or multi-classed since there are alot of elves?
You guys seem to be missing the point of this thread. I am going to write up the village background as part of the Postfest brief, and this is your chance to influence me. Also, people need to think a bit more "normal" for this village, and bit less "The Gamboge is a dangerous hell hole, thus the village is a mid- to high-level adventure locale and the populace needs to reflect this." Keep it simple, as this may end up being something we compile in PDF form. Therefore, think about what most village write-ups look like, and write accordingly. I think I need to set up a form for everyone to fill out, just to get everything on track, so here we go:
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Given that this village is a mainly populated by humans and is located in a woodland setting, and considering the natural/political environment of the area (read the thread for info on all of this), provide the following information):
* Briefly describe FIVE locations/features you want the village to have.
* Briefly describe THREE locations/features that you do NOT want the village to have.
* Name TWO gods that are worshiped by many of the villagers.
* Name FIVE other gods that are worshiped by a few of the villagers.
* Briefly describe ONE other thing of your choice.
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That should give me plenty of information to go on, so have at it. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
Right. This village is not a stone's throw away from a place where gods manifested, demon lords were imprisoned, and Circle of Eight caliber wizards fought (and died) in EPIC battle, such that each side would have good reasons for installing high level agents in the local village.
Think more along the lines of the village of Orlane from Cult of the Reptile God, minus the 120 ft. x 120 ft. temple (Seriously? Do people even realize how monstrously huge this is?!), the lake..er...."pond", and the ginormous village buildings (and go ahead and double the number of locations/population). Okay, just cut down the scale on the Orlane map to 10 ft. squares instead of 20 ft. squares, and things would be closer to normal. These are not modern-sized homes with building codes that say bedrooms cannot be smaller than X, and such. The dwellings in this village will be more along the lines of rustic cabins (1-4 smaller rooms for most of them) that surely won't be comparable to ski lodges, and the chapels won't rival the size of the local Bass Pro Shop either (if you have ever been to one, you know how big they are).
(That pic actually makes the place look small!) _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
Last edited by Cebrion on Thu Mar 14, 2013 1:47 am; edited 1 time in total
* Briefly describe FIVE locations/features you want the village to have.
- A house destroyed in a fire. A well (far from the burned house). An old widow who is a mid-wife/healer/wisewoman. Shoemaker's shop. Carpenter's shop.
* Briefly describe THREE locations/features that you do NOT want the village to have.
- Some powerful out-of-place super-NPC who protects the village. Anything that would cost a lot of money. Possibility to buy magical items.
* Name TWO gods that are worshiped by many of the villagers.
- Pelor. Ehlonna.
* Name FIVE other gods that are worshiped by a few of the villagers.
- St. Cuthbert. Moradin. Yondalla. Pyremius. Old Faith.
* Briefly describe ONE other thing of your choice.
- Almost everyone should be True Neutral.
The dwellings in this village will be more along the lines of rustic cabins (1-4 smaller rooms for most of them)
Too big, more along the lines of Little House on the Prarie -- one large room, with an alcove for the parents and a loft for the kids.
Hey, this is a small place. 4 rooms require interior walls. If the village has a single carpenter, it took him a couple of years to build that many, of those kinds of houses.
A 4 room house is beyond a "simple" farmer. Even our "frontier" log-cabins were just one large room, no interior partitions. Interior walls require a "trained" skill . . . like a carpenter!
* Briefly describe FIVE locations/features you want the village to have.
Instead of a community building, I'd like this village to have a large campfire ring for communal gatherings. Next to it should be an open-air shelter with a peaked roof. Stumps around the campfire can be moved under the shelter's roof during meetings in inclement weather. This would be more appropriate to the woodland setting and much easier to build than a large, walled building. This community is comprised, in my mind, of more neutrally and chaotically alignmed individuals than those of a lawful persuasion, so it would be difficult for them to organize the man-power to construct a complete building.
I'd also like to see a woodcutter (he clears deadwood out of the surrounding forest to be used for firewood by the villagers), several huntsmen (including trappers) who sell the game they catch to the locals, a bowyer/fletcher (should have several customers in the area), a seamstress (though most married women in the community will make clothes for their families, the single men will need someone to purchase clothing from, and a tanner who purchases hides from the huntsmen and turns them into leather clothing, tools, and other useful implements.
Quote:
* Briefly describe THREE locations/features that you do NOT want the village to have.
There should be no risen fiends, nor fallen angels. I do not want to see a wizard's tower - that's too cliche. There should be no prison. This village is a frontier village that deals with the small amount of crime it experiences in a quick, efficient manner.
Quote:
* Name TWO gods that are worshiped by many of the villagers.
I agree that Pelor is a good choice because he represents a more lenient alternative to the Pholtus of the Pale and his NG alignment is appealing to all goodly aligned folks. Ehlonna is another good one, since a large portion of our community will be making a living directly from the forest.
Quote:
* Name FIVE other gods that are worshiped by a few of the villagers.
Beory (earth, for much the same reason as Ehlonna);
Istus (some folks may have a defeatist attitude that their lives are simply up to fate);
Kord (one of the huntsmen or the woodcutter, etc. may be a large man fond of wrestling);
Obad-Hai (appealing more to the woodsfolk of an old faith tradition); and
Trithereon (in his aspect promoting self-defense).
I could list a dozen or more that would be appropriate, though, so these are just the first ones on my list.
I do not believe that St. Cuthbert is a good choice as his LN alignment would be seen as very similar to the Pholtusites of the Pale.
Quote:
* Briefly describe ONE other thing of your choice.
Since I see this village as being mostly neutral and chaotic, rather than lawful, I think that it should have a rather loose leadership. Everyone feels capable of taking care of their own business. Crimes are despised by all, since they impinge upon another's freedom. The most aggregious offenses to community members are dealt with by a posse or a lynch mob. There will be a rivalry between the more powerful members of the community (clerics of the two main churches, head huntsman, etc.), but they all respect individual freedom enough not to hard to force the others to agree with them. And, why would they need to? "If the community, or an individual member, is attacked by outsiders, everyone comes to their aid. If your friend needs help and you want to help him, do so. Otherwise, don't stick your nose into another man's business."
My answers are based upon the probable make-up of the area's predominantly human population -- as per the LGG -- and what I perceive would be their legitimate concerns. The Nyrond/Pale area is predominantly Oeridian {Great Kingdom}, with Flan being the second largest group {Original Inhabitants}, with some Suel mixed in {Trek of the Northern Barbarians}.
* Briefly describe FIVE locations/features you want the village to have.
- A Tavern, which allows "sleeping in/on corners/floor." {Everyone visits such places at the end of the work day}
- An Apothecary/Herbalist, selling healing remedies. {A must in a place without doctors and where two/three low level Clerics/Druids can't always take care of a population of 247(?)}
- A Blacksmith, specializing in Lumber and Farming tools, but able to do other work (i.e. repairing weapons/armor).
- A Carpenter's shop, which also serves to repair wagons, etc.
- A Bowyer/Fletcher, making and repairing the "tools" needed for survival in the forest.
* Briefly describe THREE locations/features that you do NOT want the village to have.
- Agree with not having "some powerful out-of-place super-NPC who protects the village" type person.
- Any business establishment which properly belongs to a more "city" type of environment.
- Any item available for purchase more "magical" in nature than minor healing potions; which should be available from either of "our" churches' Clergymen/Druids.
* Name two Gods that are worshiped by many of the villagers. (I prefer Gods that are little known, or "used," and are important to the local populace, therefore:)
- Merikka (Oeridian) – demi-Goddess of Agriculture, Farming and the Home.
- Old Faith (Flan), which is a combined worship of – Beory, Goddess of the Oerth, Nature and Rain and Obad-Hai, God of Nature, Woodlands, Freedom, Hunting and Beasts.
* Name FIVE other gods that are worshiped by a few of the villagers. (Again, I prefer Gods that see little usage and fit the population's make-up, thus:)
- Kord (Suel) – God of Ahtletics, Sports, Brawling, Strength and Courage. {Strength and Courage are a definite "must" for living on the "fringes"}
- Solonor Thelandira (Elven) – God of Archery, Hunting and Wilderness Survival.
- The Velaeri (Oeridian) – The Oeridian Agricultural Gods which are worshiped as a group {thus one Shrine} and represent the Seasons: Velnius, Atroa, Wenta, Telchus and Sotillion .
- Segojan Earthcaller (Gnome) – God of Earth and Nature.
* Briefly describe ONE other thing of your choice.
It is perfectly reasonable, in the fantasy world of Greyhawk, that an author can create a rationale for anything s/he wants to include in any locale. If you want a gnomish glass-blower in a village like the one we're imagining, it is no great difficulty to invent a reason for him to be there...
-Yeah, but IMC, I try to keep the special pleading to a minimum (it makes me feel bad), and I'd like to do the same here, at least for my creations.
Mystic-Scholar wrote:
jamesdglick wrote:
Every other village has a swordsmith who can make a masterwork bastard sword, but no glassblowers?
Well, I wouldn't go that far. "Every other village?" No, a Master Sword-smith who can fashion Masterwork swords is going to "want what he's worth." ...
-OK, I was being a little facetious, but fantasy villages always seem to be a little heavy on industries which enable adventurers to kill stuff, and light on stuff everyone (including the adventurers) actually needs for daily life.
Mystic-Scholar wrote:
...We're starting to stretch it here just a bit. I'm beginning to second guess getting involved with this.
-OK. I'm officially sorry for bringing up the glassblower.
...EGG, himself, included the 10th level Rannos and 7th level Gremag in the 1st - 3rd level adventure, The Village of Homlet.SirXaris
XXXXXXXSPOILER XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
-The TZGY agents are 10th and 7th level? My adventuring pleasure is ruined forever! I will never forgive you!
* Briefly describe FIVE locations/features you want the village to have.
1>A Stream with a ferry or bridge crossing. This creates another reason why the Hamlet is there, a potential for a future mill, a means to float timber and barrels for commerce and revenue from the crossing. Not talking Mississippi.. more like Arkansas in Colorado . here Subject to the seasons and snowmelt from the mountains. No water, low stream, no commerce other than crossing. High Water, seasonal commerce.
Futher it fits the geography.
There can be our smaller "river" running from Woodsedge north along the forest edge (which would be WHY the forest stops there) meandering from our hamlet to Stadsett.
The Darlene Maps have always been defined as showing only the "major waterways". From there it would continue to Hawksburg and later where it would verge into the larger (more traversed) Yol River.
AND while its good to frame a start point, this,(and I Know I now Big C doesnt want to hear this part) it is similar to what Anna has rendered in her version here here. Though her version is further north of ground breaking for our little home. I'm certain there is no presedent for her path other than the geography from the mountains to the river made sense. Further it explains the existance of "why" its called Abbotsford (defining a neigbor to the north of us). Stradsett serves as the "To Market Place". And lastly is it not also prudent to think with the big picture end in mind? This gives us both maps from which to parley from in the future. With saying that,Lastly, I would wager Anna would modify her rendering for us. Thus a win/ win because it is not far removed from Anna's redition of the area. Again, not trying to divert to a "Different" map, just as a DM trying to use ALL the tools in the cabnet.
2>The only two story building is the Inn/ Tavern and it was here when the town was founded.
3>The Woods are fertile ground, but clearing has its problems.
4>Roadways are seasonal. Travel & commerce are challenging during spring and winter months.
5> Major Holiday is BIG Deal… pending determination of primary deity.
* Briefly describe THREE locations/features that you do NOT want the village to have.
1>wells (or other holes in the ground) that lead to the underdark. Let the Drow, Loth, and all the rest sit this one out.
2>Anything that resembles lost “tech” or crashed spaceships..
3>Thieves Guild
* Name TWO gods that are worshiped by many of the villagers.
1>Pelor
2>Merikka- is the Oeridian demigoddess of Agriculture, Farming, and the Home
* Name FIVE other gods that are worshiped by a few of the villagers.
1>Ehlonna
2>Fharlanghn -is the patron of all those who travel long distances
3>Berei- tries to strengthen the ties of family and community, and urges care in the planting of crops
4>Rillifane Rallathil- worshippers are taught that the Great Oak draws energy from all living things, simultaneously protecting them from exterior threats. They are urged to live in harmony with nature, serving as the agents in defending the forests from those who would overuse their resources. Small Oaks Are Shrines.
5>Daern- is the Oeridian hero-deity of defenses and fortifications
.
* Briefly describe ONE other thing of your choice.
I think I spent this on item one above
Though would add by doing it, this would create other story elements. Trade with Stradsett would be precarious because they are Certainly Pale, maybe as an adventure hook the PCs are hired by the hamlet to blaze a trail south to Nyrond or thru the mountains to Harodfort in the BoneMarch?
*Edit*
Following MS Lead I edited to include some dogma for the lesser known deities.
Last edited by Dark_Lord_Galen on Thu Mar 14, 2013 12:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
Having actually consulted a reference work for once...
Cebrion wrote:
* Briefly describe FIVE locations/features you want the village to have...
1) Herdsmen (Pig, Sheep, Goat, maybe Cattle. This village is on the verge of the Pale, which has a "barely bearable 'summer'" during which "crops are grown with difficulty. A sizeable portion of the population herds animals instead", Living Greyhawk Gazeteer, p. 81.
People gotta eat, and it's a long and expensive distance to food growing areas, so there's a local market. Hunting and gathering only gets you so far when you have 200 plus people staying put in one place since these people don't seem to be semi-nomadic. I calculate that they could largely remain within a 3 mile radius and still maintain the herds to support 267 people without denuding the area, particularly since herds are usually less wearing on the soil than crops. In the real Middle Ages, pigs often foraged in the wooodland for their feed- acorns being a biggie, thus my earlier suggestion);
2) Bowyer (They're surrounded by Hornwood; if someone doesn't take advantage of that, they're drooling idiots. Yes, many might be able to do some of this themselves, but it's always nice to have an expert, and he can export. Probably includes Fletcher. IIRC, ash is the best wood for arrows, but I think Elm will do. I'll have to check. I think Bronzewood might be too heavy and too stiff, but I don't know);
3) Blacksmith (It would be hard for anyone to get by without one locally);
4) Woodcutter (Not a lumbering oepration. Not everyone has time to gather their own, particularly the blacksmith. The bowyer would colect his own);
5) Carpenter (Many will have built their own places, but there would be a market for an expert, particulalry bigger jobs, and for maintenance. If he does sideline stuff like arkwright, he can export. He can work with teh blacksmith to do a little wheelwrighting).
6) Cannibalistic Halflings from the Underdark.
Just kidding.
Cebrion wrote:
* Briefly describe THREE locations/features that you do NOT want the village to have...
-DLG partly beat me to it, but:
1) No professional, full-time criminal organizations (Thieves' Guild; Assassins' Guild. This does not neccessarily rule out out part time smuggling between Nyrond and the Pale, ripping off strangers, etc., but they do it as a side-line, and not very often).
Dark_Lord_Galen wrote:
...wells (or other holes in the ground) that lead to the underdark. Let the Drow, Loth, and all the rest sit this one out.
...Anything that resembles lost “tech” or crashed spaceships...
-Hey! I want my CHUDs!
2) Could we just call this "Leave off the weird stuff"?
Dark_Lord_Galen wrote:
...Let the Drow, Loth, and all the rest sit this one out...
3) Let's call this "Can something happen without it being a plot by Tharizdun/Lloth/Iuz/Grazzt/Zagyg/Iggwilv/Circle of Eight"?
Cebrion wrote:
* Name TWO gods that are worshiped by many of the villagers...
1) Beory (I figure a lot of the villages will be originally be from the Pale, so Beory is one of the "other" deities mentioned as worshipped the LG Gazeteer, p. 80. She also has a protective aspect which the villagers would probably like);
2) Phyton (one of the "other" deities mentioned as worshipped in the Pale in the LG Gazeteer, p. 80. M-S and Sir X mentioned Obad-Hai in the top two, but he's always struck me as the militant "Get Out of My Woods" type. The villagers might respect and/or fear Obad Hai, but Phyton would be their guy. FWIW, I have no idea why a Suel god is so popular in the Pale, but so be it. And he's PERFECT as a god of pioneers).
Cebrion wrote:
* Name FIVE other gods that are worshiped by a few of the villagers...
3) Pelor (generic god popular everywhere, including Nyrond);
4) Ehlonna (woods, etc., also some popularity with Halflings and Elves, maybe Gnomes);
5) Oeridian Agricultural Panthenon worshipped as a group (M-S beat me to it! Listed as "other dieties from the Pale", p. 80, plus general applicability).
6) Atroa, by herself;
7) Merikka.
This is the CY 576 lineup. I considered Elvish, Gnomish, and Halfling dieties, but decided that that the emphasis was Humans, and Ehlonna is sort of ecumenical. I could see Velnius (by himself) or Berei (BTW, I thought Merikka from Orlane should have been a local name for Berei or Atroa, but oh well). I could see Kord or Trithereon becoming popular later on.
Cebrion wrote:
* Briefly describe ONE other thing of your choice.
-I'll have to think about this one. SAVE!
(Edited for grammar, spelling, and expanded explanations).
Last edited by jamesdglick on Sat Mar 16, 2013 11:00 am; edited 3 times in total
Sorry, I was under the impression that this was a predominantly human population and so I named one Elven and one Gnome Deity.
In addition, the "neighborhood" is predominantly Oeridian, which mean Oeridian Gods, followed closely by Flannae, meaning Flan Gods, followed by Suloise (a minority) and thus only one of the Suloise Gods.
Given their worshipers minority status in the village, the Elven, Gnome and Suloise Gods would only have a shrine and not one of the churches.
This is not a Major City where all the Gods are present and their influence permeates the thinking of the masses. These are simple, rustic people who would follow the Gods of their people: Oeridians worship Oeridian Gods, Flan worship Flannae Gods, etc.
Also, as I pointed out, some of these Gods are worshiped in pairs, or groups, universally (a.k.a throughout the Oerth). They aren't worshiped individually. Check your "Canon."
In addition, the "neighborhood" is predominantly Oeridian, which mean Oeridian Gods, followed closely by Flannae, meaning Flan Gods, followed by Suloise (a minority) and thus only one of the Suloise Gods.
The area of the village is claimed by Nyrond, thus they are "Nyrondese", though the Gambogefolk are effectively independent unless it is politically convenient to claim otherwise (they often reinforce a claim of Nyrondese citizenship due to the unwanted advances of the Palish). The people here are mostly the remains of Flan and Oeridians that have been pushed out of the Pale proper, where the Old Faith/nature god worship is not tolerated. As such, the people in the village are predominantly Flan, with a lesser admixture of Oeridian, and little to no Suloise blood. Post Greyhawk Wars, there could have been a further influx of Flan blood from Tenha refugees with no interest in worshiping Pholtus. The southern Gambogefolk would be more strongly linked to the Nyrondese blood and have a higher admixture of both Oeridian and Suloise blood, but the village isn't located there.
As to a carpenter being required for interior cabin walls, it only requires a few posts set in the floor and affixed to the rafters to fully brace them, and concavely end-cut "logs" stacked atop one another to complete the walls themselves. Such simple things can easily be accomplished by seasoned woodsman used to building such things as cabins. Get out your Lincoln Logs and try it out.
Anyways, just post answers to the questionnaire. Leave off with other discussion please. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
I know a guy, he's a U.S. citizen who lives in New York. So what? His parents are from Mississippi, so he grew up Baptist -- in spite of the fact that most New Yorkers are Catholic.
Cebrion wrote:
. . . the people in the village are predominantly Flan, with a lesser admixture of Oeridian, and little to no Suloise blood.
That's very important to know, because people are going to worship their native Gods.
And I grew up in Construction, worked during the summer months with father and uncles from the age of 9, entered full time at the age of 17 and 9 months, worked at it until the age of 37, when I became a Truck Driver.
Several here on the site have seen the pictures of the remodeling done on my Aunt's bathroom last year.
But I'll accept your "expertise" on the carpentry aspect.
* Briefly describe FIVE locations/features you want the village to have.
- Hostelry
- Sacred grove shared by multiple faiths
- Graveyard
- Mill house
- Midwife
* Briefly describe THREE locations/features that you do NOT want the village to have.
- Glassblower
- Carpenter
- Stone fortifications
* Name TWO gods that are worshiped by many of the villagers.
- Obad-hai
- Beory
* Name FIVE other gods that are worshiped by a few of the villagers.
- Nocticula
- Ehlonna
- Pelor
- Allitur
- Berei
* Briefly describe ONE other thing of your choice.
A vast, sprawling, ancient ipt tree, strangely twisted and riddled with knots and holes though most examples of this species are remarkable for their health. Part of it has been made into homes for the local druid and others, while part of it, blackened and fungal, is avoided.
Last edited by rasgon on Fri Mar 15, 2013 5:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
Out of curiosity, what's wrong with a carpenter?
I hope Cebrion doesn't mind this sort of question. Given a good excuse, I might eliminate carpentry from my games. Right now there are almost always carpenters in every village.
...This is not a Major City where all the Gods are present and their influence permeates the thinking of the masses. These are simple, rustic people who would follow the Gods of their people: Oeridians worship Oeridian Gods, Flan worship Flannae Gods, etc...I'm sorry, but some of you guys do not use any "rhyme or reason" that I can understand in your selection of the Gods.
-Not sure if this is directed to me, but I'm always happy to explain my reasoning...
My selections were based on the theory that most of the inhabitants are from the Pale. Page 80 of the LGG lists Beory, Phyton, and the Oeridian Aggie gods as worshipped "on the sly" in the Pale. I figure that they can be worshipped openly here. That's why I but Beory and Phyton up top. Even if Beory weren't on the list, she'd probably be on my list somewhere, since the woodland thing is obvious. I wouldn't have thought of Phyton without the listing on page 80, but when I thought about it, he's the perfect pioneer god, which I think is where the village is going. Phyton is a god who would really appeal to these people who are carving a life out of the woods.
I picked Ehlonna over Obad-Hai because the Shalm comes off as the "get outta my woods you punks!" type, sort of an antithesis of Phyton. I don't see him appealing to these people. The Oerid Aggies are also on the list, so I put them on the secondary list. But of them, I think Atroa deserves a listing of her own, as she'd be the most favored. I don't see these folks being all that hot for lazy Sotillion, or for Telchur (except propitiation, which they can handle through the group worship). Wenta and Velnius would be good, too, but I had to pick. In a way, this makes Atroa number three behind Beory and Phyton. The Oerid panthenon cleric and the Atroa cleric would work closely together. They might even be married. I've used this arrangement IMC.
Mystic-Scholar wrote:
...Also, as I pointed out, some of these Gods are worshiped in pairs, or groups, universally (a.k.a throughout the Oerth). They aren't worshiped individually. Check your "Canon."
-Some deities can be worshipped as part of a group (Oerid Aggie gods, the Suel panthenon, the Old Faith, demi-human panthenons), but all those deities can also be worshipped as individuals (as per the listings in the boxed set, FtA, and LGG).
rasgon wrote:
- Graveyard...
-Yeah, I usually put one around the center of worship, unless they're Suel (cremation), which isn't an issue here- I think the Phyton worshippers wouldn't bother with that piece of Suelite tradition.
rasgon wrote:
Mill house...
-You'll have to convince Ceb' to bring the stream closer than two miles, unless:
1) It could just be out on the outer limit;
2) Horse powered;
3) Windmill;
4) Magic, although I think that'd be jumping the shark.
rasgon wrote:
...Nocticula...
-OK.
Any chance you'd like to explain the demon worshippers?
Or were you just waiting for someone to notice?
(Edited for grammar, spelling, and expanded explanations).
Last edited by jamesdglick on Sat Mar 16, 2013 11:00 am; edited 2 times in total
-You'll have to convince Ceb' to bring the stream closer than two miles
Cebrion specified in his first post that the village has a miller, though as you point out there are other ways to power a mill (probably not a windmill in a forest, though). It could be hand-powered, or powered by oxen. I like the idea of a large, creaking building filled with stored grain and made of weathered wood as a place where PCs, NPCs, monsters and undead can hide out.
Quote:
Any chance you'd like to explain the demon worshippers?
I said there's a sacred grove near the towns that's shared by multiple faiths, but really what I mean is that the same villagers use the grove to honor multiple gods.
On the solstices and equinoxes, Obad-hai is honored (along with his mother and consort, Beory). Villagers celebrate the turning of the seasons and the cycle of birth, life, and death. They consecrate the forest in the name of each of the elements.
On other nights when Luna is full, the mask of Obad-hai is ritually covered so that he cannot see what transpires and Ehlonna is honored in the grove. Villagers play pipes and flutes, practice wild fertility rites and leave offerings for the fey. If a unicorn is glimpsed it is considered a particularly auspicious omen.
Once a year, on Dark Night, both moons go black and certain villagers (primarily women, and only a minority of them) fearfully propitiate Nocticula, demon queen of the night, ingesting hallucinogens and leaving her blood offerings in the hope that she will bedevil the village's enemies and leave the village itself alone. On rare occasions a black unicorn appears: this is a dire omen, and on those nights only the sacrifice of a sapient being will satiate the demon queen's hunger (perhaps a cleric of Pholtus who wanders too near). The cultists, who attend rites of Ehlonna when the moons are bright, hold that when the gods cast off their sins at the dawn of creation, Ehlonna's cast-off sin fell into the Abyss to become Nocticula, the goddess's twisted shadow, still partly divine and worthy of worship though only under cover of darkness.
Last edited by rasgon on Fri Mar 15, 2013 5:38 pm; edited 2 times in total
Nothing, but smaller settlements will have fewer specialized professions. Most adult men will know enough to be able to construct and maintain their own wattle and daub homes, and won't be able to afford to bring in specialists. In a larger city there will be more wealthy people able to pay others to build and maintain their homes. In a small village based on agriculture and hunting, people will be much more self-sufficient. They might get help from their neighbors, but there's less likely to be a guy whose only job is building.
^
This, this, and this. Especially look at the wattle and daub link, and everything associated with it. Also, fields here will be surrounded by wattle fences (5 feet high) with gates to keep out Bugs Bunny, deer (they can jump rather high actually), and other forest critters. It goes without saying that, other than for farming and hunting (archery), crafting simple animal snares is another skill lots of the villagers will develop from childhood onwards.
As to a carpenter, a full-time carpenter won't be needed because practically everyone who is capable of swinging a hammer and using a saw, auger, and planer already is one, because they had to be, and these basic skills have been passed down from generation to generation. Though not his intention, MysticScholar having helped his family with construction since the age of 9 (i.e. just like youngsters in the village would), succinctly makes my point for me. Everyone knows how to do the most basic of tasks, because they are expected to learn them from an early age, and help out. There are no child labor laws here (nor apparently in MysticScholar's family either!). Building homes might not be a basic task for most of us, but for people like those living in the village, it is.
*** However, carpentry is a profession that could be combined with similar professions, and become one person's full-time job. A carpenter/wainwright/cooper for instance. There isn't enough of a demand for any one of these professions individually (meaning there is no livelihood in pursuing them individually), but taken altogether there might be enough demand for such work to provide a living for somebody in the village. So, perhaps one person who can work wood to a notable level beyond that of what the usual villager will do. I don't think that such a small community can support more than one though.
And yes, the miller uses an ox for power it (it also helps to plow his small fields). There is no sizable river nearby, but a stream a couple miles away. There are fish in it, and it is an additional water source deeper into the woods which hunters, and those living closer to it than a well, will undoubtedly use. It is rocky, with the occasional pool, and twists and turns through the dense forest. Nobody will be floating logs down it because it is rather shallow and twists and turns, and the dense forest drops all sorts of foliage and limbs into it, and tree trunks across it, thus blocking it up, altering its course, etc. It is not navigable by even canoes for any appreciably length.
And, just to say it, you folks are already influencing my thoughts on some things. I better start up a list to keep track of things. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
Any chance you'd like to explain the demon worshippers?
I said there's a sacred grove near the towns that's shared by multiple faiths, but really what I mean is that the same villagers use the grove to honor multiple gods.
On the solstices and equinoxes, Obad-hai is honored (along with his mother and consort, Beory). Villagers celebrate the turning of the seasons and the cycle of birth, life, and death. They consecrate the forest in the name of each of the elements.
On other nights when Luna is full, the mask of Obad-hai is ritually covered so that he cannot see what transpires and Ehlonna is honored in the grove. Villagers play pipes and flutes, practice wild fertility rites and leave offerings for the fey. If a unicorn is glimpsed it is considered a particularly auspicious omen.
Once a year, on Dark Night, both moons go black and certain villagers (primarily women, and only a minority of them) fearfully propitiate Nocticula, demon queen of the night, ingesting hallucinogens and leaving her blood offerings in the hope that she will bedevil the village's enemies and leave the village itself alone. On rare occasions a black unicorn appears: this is a dire omen, and on those nights only the sacrifice of a sapient being will satiate the demon queen's hunger (perhaps a cleric of Pholtus who wanders too near). The cultists, who attend rites of Ehlonna when the moons are bright, hold that when the gods cast off their sins at the dawn of creation, Ehlonna's cast-off sin fell into the Abyss to become Nocticula, the goddess's twisted shadow, still partly divine and worthy of worship though only under cover of darkness.
-I guess my point would be, "interesting idea for a village, just not this village."
That would give the village a slight evil tilt; not overwhelming, since it's something that they do one night a year out of fear, but still... I just don't think that's where we were going, but who knows (Poll! ). I've long considered doing a scenario with a village like the ones in "Dark Secret of Harvest Home" or "The Lottery" (both of which are interesting reads), but, as often happens, I just haven't used it yet (I was going to set it in The Cup region around Orlane between the Dim Forest and the Rushmoors). I used and evil-leaning druid as the instigator; you've created a much more elaborate set up. So, if we do head this way, I'm ready!
My father has a sub-Contractor's License for Masonry because that's the only test (yes, there's a test for the License) that he can pass. My uncle Francis has a sub-Contractor's License for Plumbing, my uncle Donovan for Carpentry, my uncle Denis for Roofing, my uncle Randolph for Electrical.
They usually worked on the same houses and I ended up working with each of them in my time. So, I am the only one who can pass the General Contractor's test. I'm am the only one who can answer questions regarding all of those trades. Questions?
The tests are standardized by O.S.H.A., the Occupational Safety and Health Administration -- otherwise known as the Federal Government.
Let's try a little Masonry: 1) What are wall-ties? 2) How often are wall-ties applied? *
My friend, Sam, grew-up learning to lay brick with his father. He's a brick-layer, nothing more. He calls me to do anything else he might need done. And that's how it is -- father to son. I'm one of the few who grew-up doing it all. (At present, in the United States, the average age of trained brick-layers is 62. One day, you folks won't be able to get a brick house -- there won't be anyone around who knows how to do it anymore.)
Most people go to school to become General Contractors. A General Contractor needs to know how it is done, he doesn't necessarily need to be able to actually do it. I consider myself fortunate that I actually am capable of performing the work, when most General Contractors are not.
The Miller's son is not learning how to farm, he's working in his father's mill. The Carpenter's son is not learning to mill, he's working in his father's Carpentry Shop. The kid's of the village are not growing up learning to do everything.
And for you do-it-yourself guys -- you "work" is in violation of every code there is! Meaning? You are allowed, by law, to "fix" your own homes. But you are not allowed to sell that house until your work is "signed off" by a Licensed Contractor, who is not going to risk his reputation or License on your duct tape and bailing wire repairs.
Sure, you can fix it, but not properly. Neither can everyone in the village do it "properly." That's why some of those wattle fences are better built than others. You are aware, are you not, that everyone of those fireplaces in those log cabins filled the room with smoke, aren't you? Hollywood doesn't show that because you wouldn't be able to see the actors' faces. So, no, those mountain men could not "really" build a fireplace for their log cabin. Needless to say, such fireplaces were grossly inefficient at providing heat, which is why many of them froze to death.
And it was the 1960's -- what child labor laws? Besides at 50 cents a day, $2.50 a week, I was the richest kid in my neighborhood. I could buy more candy than anybody!
Today? I let you guys pay the plumber $75 an hour to fix "that." Same for the Electrician -- except he charges more.
And who do you know that got their bathroom completely remodeled -- plumbing, electrical, carpentry, sheet rock, floor tile, old fashioned cast iron tub replaced with a walk-in shower for her two knee surgeries, newly installed, wall-mounted gas heater, cabinets, vanity, toilet -- for nothing more than the cost of materials, other than my Aunt? Hmm?
No complaints here.
Okay, I'm finished ranting. Especially as some probably still don't understand what I'm talking about. After all, it's just a game about magic . . . logic need not apply, nor does it even have a place here.
* Wall-ties are small metal strips, 8" long, used to "tie" two wall together. In the case of wood and masonry, every stud, every 7 courses of brick. Two brick walls, every 16", every 7 courses of brick.
The wall-ties are attached to the stud with 8 penny nails, or screws, then bent over the brick work, with the end folded so as to stick into one of the holes in the brick, which is then filled with masonry.
Brick walls, the two ends are folded over, forming a square "U" shape, stuck down into the holes in the brick, which are then filled with masonry.
Many of today's "not trained properly" brick-layers skip over that part -- in violation of the law. But they're cheaper than me, so you hire them. You hire me when -- in 2 or 3 years -- their wall literally falls down. (Many of you need learn your lessons the "hard way." Sad really. It ends up costing you a great deal more trying to "skimp" the first time.) _________________ Mystic's web page: http://melkot.com/mysticscholar/index.html
Mystic's blog page: http://mysticscholar.blogspot.com/
-Yeah, sometimes I do that for PT when I'm in a lazy mood...
Cebrion wrote:
...fields here will be surrounded by wattle fences (5 feet high) with gates to keep out Bugs Bunny, deer (they can jump rather high actually), and other forest critters...
-It just so happens that I've seen a deer jump a 5' high chain link fence daily.
Cebrion wrote:
...It goes without saying that, other than for farming and hunting (archery), crafting simple animal snares is another skill lots of the villagers will develop from childhood onwards. As to a carpenter, a full-time carpenter won't be needed because practically everyone who is capable of swinging a hammer and using a saw, auger, and planer already is one, because they had to be, and these basic skills have been passed down from generation to generation....
vs.
Mystic-Scholar wrote:
... So, I am the only one who can pass the General Contractor's test. I'm am the only one who can answer questions regarding all of those trades... Most people go to school to become General Contractors. A General Contractor needs to know how it is done, he doesn't necessarily need to be able to actually do it. I consider myself fortunate that I actually am capable of performing the work, when most General Contractors are not.
The Miller's son is not learning how to farm, he's working in his father's mill. The Carpenter's son is not learning to mill, he's working in his father's Carpentry Shop. The kid's of the village are not growing up learning to do everything.
And for you do-it-yourself guys -- you "work" is in violation of every code there is! ...Sure, you can fix it, but not properly. Neither can everyone in the village do it "properly." ...
-You're both sort of saying the same thing while talking past each other.
This village will be non-edition specific, but I'll use the D&D 3.5 "Craft (Carpentry)" skill as an example:
You can "Take 10" on a d20, and if you of average or better INT, etc, etc, you can handle "general knowledge" skills (Cebrion's pound a nail, saw at a 45 degree angle, plane/adze a plank, thatch wattle & daub, etc.). But the more skilled stuff requires making a check; the tougher the skill, the higher the check.
FWIW, I figure the following bonuses (inc. skill points, skill focus, INT/WIS bonus, etc) put you in the following categories:
You can argue the precise number, but that's another topic. The other editions have their equivalents. AD&D1 and AD&D2 DM's who use proficency slots would take the points and divide by four, but INT/WIS modifiers would be the same, IIRC.
This comes from a later time, but people that (I assume) were not journeyman carpenters could build a lasting two story house:
Young Abe Lincoln and his friends could build a log cabin (as we all know, Lincoln was born in the log cabin which he built was his own hands ), and they could split rails, but eventually, even before moving to town, Sligtly Older Abe got to the point where he started living in homes that were a little fancier. A guy like that would be a customer.
So yes, there are plenty of things that most of our villagers can do without even a partially trained carpenter, but as M-S points out, it's not that great, and for the more involved stuff, potentially unsafe. However, the people in the Gamboge are generally willing to accept a lower standard of efficeincy and safety than we (or the county ) would, so they won't ALL use a trained carpenter for their simple one story, two or three room home. But if they want something better, they'll want at least a journeyman. Customers will include untrained people who are relatively well off and want something nice, or for certain structures which are meant to have some prestige (a chapel). An unskilled individual can build a two story wooden structure, but as M-S points out, they might want help from a trained carpenter (which is not the same thing as having him do everything) if they want it to be less likely to fall in. Once it's built, it has to be maintained from time to time. I think a village of 267 people would bear a market for at least a part-time journeyman carpenter. Perhaps he was trained in the Pale, but left to live in the village.
Hmmm... if we don't have a carpenter, maybe we should add not only this to the village:
Sutemi wrote:
* Briefly describe FIVE locations/features you want the village to have.
- A house destroyed in a fire...
I'm still a bit confused why a village couldn't keep a carpenter. I assume that normally there are some craftsmen in villages. I understand that the farmers build their own houses, but the carpenter is needed for repairs and tools. Tools are part iron, part wood. Craftmen has plenty of stuff to do almost every day and he's a farmer too.
I'm not that convinced about villages' inability to upkeep a carpenter.
I'm still a bit confused why a village couldn't keep a carpenter. I assume that normally there are some craftsmen in villages. I understand that the farmers build their own houses, but the carpenter is needed for repairs and tools. Tools are part iron, part wood. Craftmen has plenty of stuff to do almost every day and he's a farmer too.
I'm not that convinced about villages' inability to upkeep a carpenter.
-The only two who have had a negative comment about a carpenter are:
1) Rasgon (who explained his reasoning above);
2) Cebrion, who nevertheless seems to grant that either a part-time carpenter, or a full-time woodworker (who handles carpentry and other forms of woodworking), is reasonable.
First off, am not impugning anyone's knowledge of their trade, so there is no reason to get huffy about things on that account. I am just pointing out that this is not modern carpentry. It is carpentry in the old way. There are no wall ties, there are no building codes, there is no anything.
People simply have basic carpentry skills, because that is all that is required to build these homes. Also, these homes don't exactly last forever, and need to be repaired, so people will have occasion to rebuild them (at least partially), and the older kids will be helping out with that. Buildings rot away, become weathered, burn down, etc. Every time a couple marries, a new home will often be built by their families and friends as a wedding gift (or they will end up doing it themselves if they are on their own). They won't be paying a carpenter to do it for them, because enough of the people who do know what to do can direct the others who may only have a passing knowledge of what to do. It also will mostly only cost them time and labor, not much money, and for poor, simple folk that is just what they do.
These are mostly small, simple homes, and the end products are not this
...or this
...but more like this
and this...
and this...
...and this
...and this
..and this
Yep, those are probably not up to code.
Do people really not have the vaguest idea of how simple medieval homes were? Knowledge of what is required to build something to code in the modern sense is not required. You build a house *this* way because it is the *right* way because people figured it out hundreds of years previously through trial and error, because they *needed* shelter. Now, pass that knowledge down generationally for centuries, and you might, just might, have people who know what they are doing well enough to not have a home you could play JENGA with. Don't underestimate what common people who live simply know how to do. It is one of biggest mistakes that "educated" people make (including archeologists and the like).
So, why do I feel so confident in my own point of view? Well, there are many reasons.
Let us start with my mother's side of the family first. My non-carpenter, untrained uncle built TWO cabins on is property in the old way, simply because he is a Revolutionary War and ACW history nut, and has muzzle loading gun club of like-minded people that meet on his property fairly often to shoot. He built his two cabins "just for the fun of it". Want to know what he did for a living for 50+ years? He was "just" a farmer, but I should really say "gardener", and I don't mean somebody who cuts people's lawns, but "a farmer who doesn't raise animals, only crops" (and "gardener" is the proper term for that). Those cabins are still standing, in good condition, 25 years later, and have been used when the gun club over nights it, so I guess even a "hobbyist builder" can pull off a cabin, let alone somebody who has the techniques passed down to them generationally. I could mention a few other things from my mother's side of the family, but I other examples still.
It gets even better when I go to my father's side of the family, where his father built the home they grew up in, because there was no way he could pay anyone to do it for him. It was literally a multi-room shack, because they were dirt poor. I mean so poor that they made each other Christmas gifts, and they were lucky to have those. Most of you can't even comprehend what I am talking about, but if you have watched "Moonshiners" and see how the Appalachian folk way way back in the sticks live, you have a good idea of the conditions. Speaking of the Appalachian folk who live way way back in sticks, I am pretty sure they are not carpenters either, nor they did hire carpenters to build their homes- they did it themselves.
But I digress. And so, what did my grandfather do for a living? He was "just" a farmer too, though a true farmer in the sense that he raised animals and crops (he actually started off as a sheepherder, and lived the first year of his marriage in a wagon- you can't make this stuff up!). And that was around 1925 or so, but rural Idaho was pretty dang rural back then. So, my dad grew up in those conditions and learned how to build all sorts of things. By the time he was an adult, he could build almost anything out of wood, and no, he didn't learn anything from a carpenter, because there wasn't a trained one in the entire family at the time (one of his older brothers went into construction after he left home, and unsurprisingly, had a rather easy time of it, running his own company in the end). He learned the basics from his dad and older brothers, and learned even more on his own. The main thing was that he learned a whole crap-ton of very practical knowledge while growing up because he had to- it was expected of him.
Oh, and my cousin(dad's side of the family again) built a shack out in the middle of nowhere, literally, to live among a cattle herd, literally (Bone, Idaho, circa 1983 or so, population: 15 or something ludicrous like that). And he was just a "simple" farmer's son too, not a carpenter. I visited the place, and it was...simple, but it did the job. It surely didn't collapse and kill him and his wife (yep his wife- tough women on that side of the family to be sure).
So, yes, farmers know stuff. A lot of stuff. All of this was impressed upon me from an early age, and I saw most of these "horrible", not likely up-to-code buildings with my own eyes. Maybe I just have a different perspective on things than most of you. Farmers don't need carpenters, because they are carpenters (at least to a passable extent). Sure, medieval farmers didn't build to code in a modern sense, but they could build well enough to make homes for their families, barns for their livestock, etc., and they have done so for millenia. Farmers don't just raise animals, plant seeds, kill rodents and bugs, pull weeds, and harvest crops. Excepting the modern era (and by that I really mean from about 1930 onwards), if there is something on a poor farmer's farm, the farmer (and his family) probably built it with his own hands.
And so we have this little village made up mostly of farmers, and these simple folk actually know how to do a whole lot of practical, every day living stuff. Perhaps you all now can see why I really, really don't think a full-on carpenter is needed in the village?
Let me break it down in 3.X rules terms. The average rural Greyhawk peasant probably has skills like this:
Profession- Farmer: 3-5 ranks (1-3 ranks if they mostly herd animals)
Animal Handling: 1-3 ranks (3-5 if they mostly herd animals)
Profession- Carpenter: 1-3 ranks
Obviously the common rural Greyhawk peasant is not a master carpenter, but they do not need to be. The modern equivalent of these simple folk would be the Amish, who also don't need carpenters because they are carpenters (just of a higher caliber because they have have, oh, about a millennia of more know-how at their disposal). I am really at a loss as to how so many of you can sell simple, common folk so short. You really shouldn't, because the best evidence is that people who are not carpenters, or 20+ year construction workers, still live this way, and manage to build homes the same way that peasants did back in the 10th century.
See?
And I don't mind the question of there being a carpenter in the village, just the lack of any good reasons why there must be one. "But who is going to build the buildings?" is not a good reason. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
Last edited by Cebrion on Sun Mar 17, 2013 12:39 am; edited 5 times in total
While not to risk the wrath of the purple mystic lightning scholars but, as you have both demonstrated "we" have deviated..... there are really only three questions here guys...
1> Would someone possess the skill to do more refined carpentry (or what ever else) type work? Possibly
2> Could others afford to have this personage do said work for them? Probably not in most cases.... With rare exception most would have neither the funds nor the time (based on the short growing season, and free time) to have such elaborate 'luxuries"... whether they be custom homes, or more specialized skills such as fine clothes, expensive jewelry, etc..... The only explanation would be those with such advanced skills have no desire to exploit them OR they are yet to be "discovered" and are prodigy. If they exist, they could exist under either of these circumstances. For Example, IF granted the Bowyer / Fletcher, it is my thought that he/she could be a VERY accomplished artisan, but thru events in the past may wish to keep low profile unless VERY motivated to reveal his gifts. Not to say that the item would not be functional, but "master-crafted" NO... not to say he would not be capable of such.... he prefers not to advertise his true skill.
3> Who monitors and administrates the Monitors and Administrators??? hehhe
And I am equally certain ALL here have the utmost respect for the breadth and Width of knowledge our elders have.
Also, Not to be the "left brained engineer" BUT..... IF we continue with calling it a "Village" (and also agree we need to settle out on a name), the population is too low.
Based on the Glossography on the Guide of the WOG by our favorite chronicler, Pluffet Smedger,
p4
Thorpe > 20-80
Hamlet >100-400
Village>600-900
Town>1500-6500
City> 10k-60k
So, if the Box set is the basis for the framework... we are.... a Hamlet.... or we can increase the population, only detailing the proximate NPCs...
Both hamlet and village can fit the region as the maps never defined anything smaller than a town.
In either case, it seems the discussion has been very rustic thus leaning even towards a Thorpe... which would have very few permanent structures.
Personally, I see it somewhere between a hamlet and an emerging Village. This would suggest several permanent structures, maybe one or two elaborate ones, and the beginnings of commerce.
Also FYI A Guide to the WOG p45 Lists the area as having a high degree of Food and surprisingly.... Platinum as resources.
3> Who monitors and administrates the Monitors and Administrators??? hehhe
Okay, fine. The kids are not as confrontational now (kids can be so mean!). But, yes, it is off the rails a bit.
The reason for the size of the populace of this village is because every village in every module is in the hamlet size range. This is also a really rural area, so won't compare numbers-wise with areas that are less...overgrown. As it is, this place has around as many people as Hommlet and Orlane combined. If those places don't feel "right" for villages, then adding another two to three hundred residents won't do it for this village either. I don't think we need to go bigger, just go for quality (and project manageability) over quantity.
I do want some discussion on another topic though, that being a glass worker. I do know a few people who blow glass as a hobby, and two people who make stained glass professionally (they do churches and similarly detailed custom work). What I mainly have a question about is the possibility of having a very small furnace/kiln set-up to do it. Most set-ups I have read about are HUGE. Modern glass workers can of course work using much smaller set-ups simply due to modern technology. If a small set-up isn't all that feasible, and it looks like it probably isn't (based on medieval tech), then a magical solution may be needed. I would prefer that such a thing would be low-key though.
So, perhaps a magical gem that, when sufficiently heated and activated with a command word, summons two bound fire mephits to serve the owner (sort of like a baby fire elemental gem). That gem goes in a small furnace (or kiln for other treatments) to make it hot enough to melt the ingredients for glass without the need for the rather large sort of furnace normally associated with the trade. Granted, "sheets" of glass will be limited in size due to the small size of the furnace- maybe 1 ft. x 2 ft. or so at the largest- but that would still be big enough for glass windows and stained glass, plus any normal size of glass, bottle, decanter, mug, jar, etc., which can be blown. Such a solution is not too blatantly over-the-top (at least in my opinion). And gnomes like gems too. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
I'm loving the pictures Cebrion No picture of a dragon or any other monster has ever inspired me to roll some dice as those pictures. It's time to save some villains! Excellent work!
Cebrion, I have a suggestion:
This would be edition specific but not too much... In 3rd edition DMG it says that a village of 200 people has (in addition to a blacksmith) "seven expert crafters and professional of various sorts". I have always defaulted these to be a carpenter, a wise(wo)man/minor sage, an assistant smith, a cobbler, a local trader and a couple of spinsters.
In order not to deviate the conversation, maybe I should create a thread "Name those professionals" in which people could voice their opinion what are the core professionals of a small village?
That's fine. Everything is just guidelines at this point. Another level to the questionnaire so to speak. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
...I appreciate these facts and it all sounds good, but, to make it "work" the way you envision it, I think the village needs to be set-back a bit more than a mere mile.
When you're talking about a 10 square mile village "area," being one mile "within" the Forest isn't very far. The village would be "noticeable," in that it wouldn't be that much "out of the way."Perhaps the village should be set, say, three miles into the forest?
...if the village were on the edge of the wood, the Pale could (and would) claim it legally, so it would have to be in a little. Three miles is fine.
Mystic-Scholar wrote:
...Perhaps the village should be set, say, three miles into the forest? That would make it that much more "hidden" from passersby and yet not so far as to be completely vulnerable to monstrous humanoids and other types of danger.
A three mile long path/road through the forest is "patrol-able" by the village's men/quasi-guards, making it fairly safe for travel -- during the day, but perhaps a little risky at night?
-Again, no problem with 3 miles inside, although I don't think it's neccessary to be "hidden" from passerby; they'd be welcome. I was getting the feeling from Ceb' that the reason it has not been annexed by the Pale (yet) is that it is "not worth the trouble" to occupy it rather than it's a "secret".
Incidentally, I don't have my references, but I seem to remember (LLG?) that the Ogburg diocese is a lot less hostile to heretics than the rest of the Pale anyway...
Mystic-Scholar wrote:
I think a Mason might be in order so as to have a Stone Inn/Tavern, at least the first floor. This could serve as a sort of "fort" in which the villagers gather whenever there's real "trouble."With the types of homes Cebrion has envisioned, it would be too easy for "bugbears" (et al) to "burn them out!"
Oh! The Horror!
-Not with half a dozen arrows sticking in each one.
-They'd need a rallying point in case of attack, and the inn (stone or otherwise) would be a good place to do it, but you'd probably want a well inside the inn as a secure source of water. In case of a seige, a tun of ale (250 gallons) will only last so long with 200 plus people.
Last edited by jamesdglick on Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:32 am; edited 2 times in total
The village was founded in CY 487 by tough settlers, namely woodsmen, hunters, and farmers. This is a frontier-type area, literally lying on the border of Nyrond,
The Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, page 140: "The ancient, dense Gamboge Forest lies between the states of Nyrond and the Pale, though neither claims it."
The current border of Nyrond are: Nesser River -- Franz River -- Artonsomay River -- Nutherwood -- Gamboge Forest (northern terminus) -- Rakers -- Flinty Hills (lower) Harp River -- Relmor Bay.
"Gamboge Forest (northern terminus)" means the northern edge of the woods, meaning all of it in claimed by Nyrond, and that is likely a condition of the treaty signed between the two nations. So, no face palm emoticon is required.
The only reason why Nyrond would not push the claim forcibly is because they do not want to force the hands of the Gambogefolk to make good on their efforts to proclaim themselves a separate nation, such that Nyrond would lose any right the y currently have to the resources of the Gamboge forest without resorting to war. And do you think that anyone would really want to go to war in one of the most dense forests in Oerth, and against elves and gnomes? Probably not.
The Palish however are a bit more stupid, and their zealotry and sense of self-righteousness are not exactly tempering factors, and so the Gambogefolk play the threat of Nyrond off against the Palish.
Not that the LGG writers paid all that much attention to truth of the situation. The Gamboge was relatively untouched by the GH Wars. Though the Pale did gain in the end, it was touched (just not too greatly). The Gambogefolk have not changed. The Palish are jackholes though, and so they no doubt attempt to nibble away at the edge of the woods as they can, which no doubt results in the occasional Palish woodsmen/ Pholtan zealots being shot dead with arrows, or simply disappearing altogether (not that the tension caused by this would be undesirable in an adventure locale, eh?).
So, I have thought long and hard about all of this, and have read everything on Nyrond, the Pale, Tehn, and the Gamboge. The end result is that for the early material (which is the baseline ) nothing changes. For later material all views are still catered to. The different parties can claim whatever they want, but the truth of the matter is that the Gambogefolk are fiercely independent, and do what is required for them to remain so.
That is the political climate with regard to the village, which lies in the Gamboge, is nominally claimed by Nyrond, and yet Nyrond does not force the issue unless the Pale blatantly sticks its nose where it doesn't belong (i.e. into the Gamboge Forest). Those that have to deal with this the most are the Gambogefolk themselves, but they generally pretty capable. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
The different parties can claim whatever they want, but the truth of the matter is that the Gambogefolk are fiercely independent, and do what is required for them to remain so.
That is the political climate with regard to the village, which lies in the Gamboge, is nominally claimed by Nyrond, and yet Nyrond does not force the issue unless the Pale blatantly sticks its nose where it doesn't belong (i.e. into the Gamboge Forest). Those that have to deal with this the most are the Gambogefolk themselves, but they generally pretty capable.
I see this as akin to the Lortmills for Dwarves, Gnarley Forest or Vesse for Elves, only to name a few. While Furyondy, Keoland, Veluna, Perrenland, etc may lay "claim" to the regions, it is who lives there that "reigns".
...Some fish from the stream "nearby" will be rare, and beef more rare still. All kinds of leather are used for different things. the most common types of pelts would be rabbit, raccoon, wolf (or even warg ), beaver, muskrat/mink/weasel, squirrel, and whatever fantasy critters that might be good for such, and that live in the woods (mainly giant/dire versions of things)...
-Hmmm... This brings up the topic of what sort of game is in the Gamboge. This may not be a big deal, but why not nit pick!
IMC, I use the the Shedomar and Javan river valleys, and Highfolk as North American analogs (sort of), so that's where you'd find raccoons, not the Gamboge (IMC). Anyone else have ideas on this? Is there any canonical reference for this?
Of course, if I don't use raccoons in the Gamboge, and someone else mentions them in their description, I guess I could just substitute "hedgehogs", but their really not the same thing..."
Cebrion wrote:
...One last bit regarding stats. Anyone who does get to stat out a Professional need not do so with the usual massive stat block...
-That would be "extra credit", I presume. Sometimes, having the stats, class, levels, skills, feats, etc give you an idea of what they are and "where they've been".
Cebrion wrote:
...Bob the bower is a gruff older man (age 58), but his few friends know that his surly mien hides a dry wit. He is an accomplished bowyer, having learned some of his trade while briefly living among the elves of the Gamboge. Bob knows he does good work, and will take it as an insult if anyone tries to lowball him when striking a bargain. He will still deal with such individuals, if they haven't insulted him too greatly, but they will be charged 20% more.
[1E] Bob the Bowyer, Male Human Ranger 3
Dex: 16, Con: 13, Int: 15, Cha: 8; H.P.: 20, AL: CG
Profession: Bowyer; speaks Elvish; +1 composite longbow
[2E] Bob the Bowyer, Male Human Ranger 3
Dex: 16, Con: 13, Int: 15, Cha: 8, H.P.: 20, AL: CG
NWP: Boywer-fletcher; speaks Elvish; +1 composite longbow.
[4E] Bob the Bowyer, Male Human Striker 3 (Archer Ranger)
Dex: 16, Con: 13, Int: 15, Cha: 8; H.P.: 20, AL: Good
...etc...
-I know the above is just an illustration for something many people won't do anyway, but, for those who want to...
Nit pick time!
I've spent a lot of time converting older edition D&D scenarios (and other gaming systems, including Boothill, Top Secret, and even Squad Leader) to D&D 3.5. For some reason, I enjoy it. jhdfjkdf So I'll offer the following:
The first possible hang up while converting is hit points per level. I forget what OD&D used, but AD&D 1 used 2d8 Hit points for a 1st level ranger, and 1d8 thereafter (I don't know about D&D 4).
IIRC, AD&D2 used 1d10. D&D 3X uses 1d8, so the base hps would vary accordingly. In addition, there's the hit point bonus for CON; a 13 CON is a +0 hp bonus per die for OD&D, AD&D1, and AD&D2, but +1 for D&D 3.5.
Hmmm... You might be on to something by making the D&D 3X version of Bob the Bowyer a 4th level NPC instead of 3rd. You could argue that there is "level inflation" in D&D 3X, and that NPCs should be adjusted accordingly.
Different editions add/subtract stats at different ages (and different stats, and to different degrees). The D&D3X version won't see an age-based modification until his 70th birthday.
Another point: In D&D 3.5, a 4th level character gets +1 for a stat'. Perhaps Bob increases his INT to improve his craft, or maybe hoping that he makes it to age 70, he improves one of his physical stats to stay above water (in the meantime, 14 CON would give him +2 per hit die instead of +1).
Of course, a lot of DMs will do their own conversions anyway, but just in case...
I plan on stating my "people" with 3.5, since that's the "most popular" edition (or so it seems to me), even though I'm a fan of 2E. This will save the bulk of people from having to do it themselves.
Any conversions thereof will need to be done by the DM -- since that's his/her job anyway. I will not be stating my "people" in every Edition format. For instance, I know nothing -- and want to know nothing -- of 4/5E. _________________ Mystic's web page: http://melkot.com/mysticscholar/index.html
Mystic's blog page: http://mysticscholar.blogspot.com/
I plan on stating my "people" with 3.5, since that's the "most popular" edition (or so it seems to me), even though I'm a fan of 2E. This will save the bulk of people from having to do it themselves.
Any conversions thereof will need to be done by the DM -- since that's his/her job anyway. I will not be stating my "people" in every Edition format. For instance, I know nothing -- and want to know nothing -- of 4/5E.
-I'll definitely do D&D 3.5, and probably AD&D1, since I still have some of the reference materials. My AD&D 2 has gone to a far, far better place, so Lanthorn will just have to convert from AD&D1.
...One last bit regarding stats. Anyone who does get to stat out a Professional need not do so with the usual massive stat block...
-That would be "extra credit", I presume. Sometimes, having the stats, class, levels, skills, feats, etc give you an idea of what they are and "where they've been".
Yes, including stats, for any edition, would be extra credit, but I would hope that for any NPCs that the author thinks would have levels would at least put in something utterly simple, like "Bob the builder (Ranger 3), is the local bowyer, and has been living here for the past twelve years."
jamesdglick wrote:
The first possible hang up while converting is hit points per level. I forget what OD&D used, but AD&D 1 used 2d8 Hit points for a 1st level ranger, and 1d8 thereafter (I don't know about D&D 4).
There is no hang-up, it is rather easy. My example is concerned with giving people an example of simplicity. The details there are not exactly accurate conversions, just intended to be close. Nobody needs to be completely anal about everything- that is what DMs are for.
jamesdglick wrote:
Hmmm... You might be on to something by making the D&D 3X version of Bob the Bowyer a 4th level NPC instead of 3rd. You could argue that there is "level inflation" in D&D 3X, and that NPCs should be adjusted accordingly.
Of course there is a reason for that, and it mainly has to do with hit points and attack capability remaining within the same range as much as possible without skewing things too much.
jamesdglick wrote:
Different editions add/subtract stats at different ages (and different stats, and to different degrees). The D&D3X version won't see an age-based modification until his 70th birthday.
Another point: In D&D 3.5, a 4th level character gets +1 for a stat'. Perhaps Bob increases his INT to improve his craft, or maybe hoping that he makes it to age 70, he improves one of his physical stats to stay above water (in the meantime, 14 CON would give him +2 per hit die instead of +1).
None of this really matters. People should give them the stats they want the NPC to have, according to the function of said stats in each particular rules system. The only time exacting rules translations are really important is when it is being done with PCs, but that is, of course, more a function of the concerns of Players, not DMs. People should not get too hung up on conversion accuracy.
And I did forget to include BECMI rules in the example, not that they are complex or anything. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
Last edited by Cebrion on Fri May 31, 2013 6:57 am; edited 2 times in total
None of this really matters. People should give them the stats they want the NPC to have . . .
Cebrion has the right of it. As I use our village in my games, I will be changing some of the stats we set "here." I may very well want the "Ranger" to be 4th or 5th level for my game, as I need him/her to be.
We need to do for the NPCs what we're doing for the village itself . . . providing a foundation upon which DMs can build. As we all know, trying to create a village like this for our individual games is really pains-taking and time consuming. Our "foundation" village is going to be a great boon to DMs.
The same is true for the "local" NPCs. There is no need to "go overboard" in the details and stating. If a contributor wishes to do so, then by all means, do so! But let's not set this up as though "we" have to.
...The only time exacting rules translations are really important is when it is being done with PCs, but that is, of course, more a function of the concerns of Players, not DMs...
-Nah... I always figure "What's good for the goose..."
Cebrion wrote:
...People should give them the stats they want the NPC to have, according to the function of said stats in each particular rules system... People should not get too hung up on conversion accuracy...
-Ahem. I do.
But most DMs are going to shift things a little with or without shifts between editions, anyway. Anyway, my D&D 3.5 and AD&D1 versions will include designer notes for my rationale, that way, whatever the DM decides to do, their at least know what I was thinking.
To give another example: The "average" Priest leading a congregation -- a country church -- is only 3rd level, though he be 70 years old...
-In AD&D1, the level name for a 4th level Fighter was "Hero", and I figure that's about right. 4th level is sort of the break off point for where you start meeting oddballs.
Mystic-Scholar wrote:
...The "common people" are people that your PCs will never talk to! The few statted NPCs that we are creating are the people that a DM's PCs will interact with, talk to, ask for advice: "Do you know where that old temple is?"
-That, or if the village gets attacked by those Bugbears, stats help tell the DM who lives, who dies (or is crippled), how many bugbears get to meet Hruggek, and whether or not that part of the ville gets fried.
And, cliché or not, you know that the Bugbear raid is coming...
if the village gets attacked by those Bugbears, stats help tell the DM who lives, who dies (or is crippled) . . .
Personally, I never keep track of such things. You're actually going to roll and role play 257 people?...
-Sometimes. More commonly, I'd wargame game it at 10:1. Other times, I might just use a modified Lanchester equation. But to do any of them, I need to know how good they (and their opponents are). Even if you want to just guess (which I consider unfair to the NPCs, but...), it helps to know class, level, stats, equipment, etc.
Incidentally, Ceberion pointed out that there are only about 50 primary combatants in the village; the others are hiding. You only need to figure out what happens if the defense fails, and the baddies get at them. Usually, their moral would just fail, and its a matter of punch/overbear. A good analogy might be what happened when Comanches overran a village in Tejas. Not pretty. (EDIT: I'm in an Indian Wars frame of mind. Those Bugbears would have to be mounted (poor pony), or they'd be some big friggin' Indians. And whatever their faults, the Comanches didn't normally eat people. ).
One more reason to make sure that the villagers have the skills they need to survive!
EDIT EDIT: Eureka! Using the Comanche analogy, the reason Mexico wanted Americans to emigrate was to defend the northern border, because the Comanche and Kiowa were eating their lunch. Perhaps Mexican peons and mission Indians (serfs, really) were overwhelmingly Commoners, while the American pioneer had a larger proportion of Experts, Rangers, Scouts, and Rogues (heavy on the Rogues! )?
I think I said the village militia is 50 or so, but that they can double that number in need. I forget where I mentioned this though. They could probably go up to about 150 total or so if in dire need (i.e. "If we don't all fight, we will all die!"), but the other two fifths of the populace will be too young (mostly) or too old to do much. Most humanoid warbands, or rampaging monsters, simply won't be large/powerful enough to be able to threaten a group of 50 combatants (let alone 100+) though.
After about five generations...
Village Population (estimates, subject to modification)
That is for the village proper. There are a few lurkers living a bit out from the village too. the main reason for posting those numbers is so that people who may throw a non-human somewhere in their article doesn't go too crazy with them. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
...At this point, I am going to lay out some basic information on the village.
So, after having rolled some dice (yes, I really did), the population will be made up of 267 hardy souls (about 45 families, plus other individuals). This will actually be quite a few people, considering that the village is in the Gamboge Forest. The village was founded in CY 487 by tough settlers, namely woodsmen, hunters, and farmers. This is a frontier-type area, literally lying on the border of Nyrond, and in a more out-of-the-way place. Civilization may have gradually encroached on the area since its founding, but its presence is still not too strongly felt at this point...
The village is overseen by a village elder. Along with twenty of the older boys in the village, thirty of the men of the village form the village's rangers/watch/militia, depending on their individual skills, though only about one fourth of them is on duty at any one time, as they have their own families/farms/business to take care of. One feature of note is a large tree located near the center of the village, which the village children are encouraged to play about...
Cebrion wrote:
... They could probably go up to about 150 total or so if in dire need (i.e. "If we don't all fight, we will all die!"), but the other two fifths of the populace will be too young (mostly) or too old to do much. Most humanoid warbands, or rampaging monsters, simply won't be large/powerful enough to be able to threaten a group of 50 combatants (let alone 100+) though...
-Looks like we gonna have us some pi-oh-neer fahtin' wimmin'!
Of the 267, what is the adult male : adult female : child ratio? I imagine the place as slowly growing, mostly due to immigration rather than natural population increase. That probably means more men than women, and a larger proportion of adults than usual. Allowing for a quasi-medieval child survival rate which is increased by magic, then...
jamesdglick finally mentioned the fact that Commoner is an NPC class in 3.x. I find it funny, looking over the level progression table, that a person could somehow attain 20th level in Commoner. ...
1) What do you mean, finally?! A survivable wood-wise 1st level Commoner was the first thing I mentioned to Sutemi!
2) Someone once posted an articel called "Joe the 12th level Commoner". I tried looking, but the search engine only goes back one page, and google/ask/yahoo come up with references to the article, not the article itself. It was a fine article, but I'd argue that by the time a guy did enough stuff to get to 12th level, he'd have enough OJT to qualify as either a Warrior (perhaps Com3/War9), an Expert, or an Adept, if not a PC-type class.
SirXaris wrote:
...For example, my maternal grandfather built a log cabin on the side of a mountain outside Anchorage after WWII by himself and raised his family by hunting, trapping, fishing, panning/mining for gold, etc. - all skills he learned growing up as a boy in southern Missouri, not as a soldier in the war. Perhaps your grandmother told you stories of surviving the Dust Bowl or your great, great grandmother was a surviving member of the Donner Party...
-The question is, in game terms, how many XPs do you get for that. Generous DM?
FWIW, I have a system whereby anyone gains XP (applicable to NPC classes only) for facing heat, cold, natural disasters, disease, and parasitic infection. Parents get at least part of their kids XPs (since they're responsible), as masters for their apprentices or acolytes, leaders for their soldiers, etc. But it still doesn't add to 20th level unless they live in a non-stop living hell, but nonetheless manage to keep a lot of their charges alive for decades on end...
SirXaris wrote:
...My point was that, having survived such an ordeal by whatever means, they would have earned enough experience points to be higher level Commoners than those that lived a more ordinary, trial free, life...
-Under ideal (or rather, non-deal ) conditions, I agree that this can get you to 2nd level by your early 20s, 3rd level by your late 30s, and maybe 4th level by your early 60s, but short of chowing down on Uncle Joe, that's about it. Of course, i'm always willing to see a well-explained exception (and I still don't buy Joe the 12th level Commoner).
Of the 267, what is the adult male : adult female : child ratio? I imagine the place as slowly growing, mostly due to immigration rather than natural population increase. That probably means more men than women, and a larger proportion of adults than usual. Allowing for a quasi-medieval child survival rate which is increased by magic, then...
100 males : 87 females : 80 children?
Generally, As I recall, Don't all renditions of the DMG guidelines only make reference to the adult population?
So in this case the 80 kiddos would be above and beyond the 267 value... Higher for human families and probably singular for demi-humans.
and as for Joe the 12th Lvl Commoner, .... gotta say it would depend on the level you DM your style of game.. Since collectively all in the "Joe debate" can site this "uncle"this or that "history" that,
I would only add.......... has anyone actually looked at Lanthorns' thread on applying skills to yourself? It is not hard to develop a lengthy list of Ranks/Skills and as a lowly 21 century commoner. So why not Joe?
It is usually not done because the "GUIDELINES" only provide a framework of information that is relavant to the story line and leaves the rest up to the DM. EGG himself was often quoted as saying he left some things intentionally vague for the creativity of the user and poetic license.
...It is not hard to develop a lengthy list of Ranks/Skills and as a lowly 21 century commoner. So why not Joe? :shades...
-One caveat with that. Having put lot of thought into the subject, I'm certain that I'm not a Commoner by D&D 3.5 standards (yes, perhaps I need another hobby ). Few of us, perhaps none of us, is a Commoner. IIHTMAG, I'd say that your typical 21st Century American would be an Expert by D&D 3.5 standards, if it weren't for the "Simple Weapon Profiency" and "Light Armor Proficeincy" requirements, and anyone who went to ROTC would have that. Commoners would be more common in the 3rd World.
...It is not hard to develop a lengthy list of Ranks/Skills and as a lowly 21 century commoner. So why not Joe? :shades...
-One caveat with that. Having put lot of thought into the subject, I'm certain that I'm not a Commoner by D&D 3.5 standards (yes, perhaps I need another hobby ). Few of us, perhaps none of us, is a Commoner. IIHTMAG, I'd say that your typical 21st Century American would be an Expert by D&D 3.5 standards, if it weren't for the "Simple Weapon Profiency" and "Light Armor Proficeincy" requirements, and anyone who went to ROTC would have that. Commoners would be more common in the 3rd World.
caveat!!???!! LOL my favorite word!!! Well,,, uhummmm.. one "caveat to your caveat".....
Still doesn't mean Joe the 12th lvl commoner doesn't have em.. just means you have more RANKS than he does...
And as to commoners being 3rd world... hummm that is perspective.... when it comes to "ranks in skills" we hold important... maybe.... but that can be applied from the third world perspective as well. They have many applications and skills that are more value there for them than we would rank as important to us.
Example, in many parts of the world it is not necessary to drive an automobile. We (most anyway) in the States have many "ranks" in this skill. But even with these "ranks" they may not be as effective in a place where the rules of the road differ (anyone who has traveled overseas can attest to this). Did your ranks in driving change? no.... but you have established no ranks in their "world". If the example makes sense.
Further, in South America, there are MANY posionous creatures that are normal for the region yet we in the States know little to nothing about them, the precautions, and the treatment to exposure. Yet from "here" is that 3rd world? They have home brew remedies and modern advances too. its the culture.
jamesdglick finally mentioned the fact that Commoner is an NPC class in 3.x. I find it funny, looking over the level progression table, that a person could somehow attain 20th level in Commoner. ...
1) What do you mean, finally?! A survivable wood-wise 1st level Commoner was the first thing I mentioned to Sutemi!
Yes, that 267 is total populace, not just adults, but this is for the village proper. There are few additional folks living on the fringes of the village. The numbers "100 males : 87 females : 80 children" is about right, but some of those "men" and "women" are teenagers. For our purposes, let us say that "children" are 13 and under, and "adults" are 14 and over.
One possible way for me to organize things is to lay out the number and type of locations, say how many people live at each, and then number them. For example:
Quote:
2. Small Inn
8-10 people + 1-3 renters; one story; partially stone, wattle, and daub building; basement; attic; attached building with small brewing operation, separate small stable(holds 4-6 horses) w/loft.
Whoever gets the location gets to flesh out the place in detail then. I would have to write up abbreviated entries for at least every main location, and a few others. Maybe that would only be 25 locations or so, so maybe not too much for me to do.
Anyways, then I hold a village location "draft". I choose a number between 1 and 100, and have you all PM me with a guess (and secondary guess for tie-breaking purposes). Whoever is closest then gets to pick their main location first, followed by whoever was next closest, and so on. Once the main locations are gone, then we go to any secondary locations. The remaining generic village folk entries could then be parceled out...or just left for me to take care of, in which case they would get a short descriptive entry. For example:
Quote:
47. Wattle and Daub Farmhouse
This simple farmhouse is home to a farmer, his wife, their two grown sons, and a huge, pitch black moor hound named Mephistopheles. They raise chickens and grow various vegetables (mostly squash), and have a milking cow. Buried just beneath the surface of a soon to be tilled plot is a phylactery containing the soul of the 36th level Neutral Evil Arch-Lich Shograh' Baal. The phylactery radiates no magic or evil, yet inspires covetousness in all who see it (save vs. spells to resist). The Arch-Lich will attempt to posses anybody who touches the phylactery (save vs. spells at -2 to resist).
So, just something simple like that for all of the entries that nobody volunteers for.
Opinions? _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
Anyways, then I hold a village location "draft". I choose a number between 1 and 100, and have you all PM me with a guess (and secondary guess for tie-breaking purposes). Whoever is closest then gets to pick their main location first, followed by whoever was next closest, and so on.
Opinions?
good with the lotto Idea, but (can't speak for anyone else) my location selection would be based on what persona I get.... would it not be prudent to set that to rest first?
IE. IF I were to get the Bowyer/Fletcher, I would want to be in close proximity to the forest, the well, and maybe the Blacksmith or some other constant heat source. And with certain aromatics probably on the edge of town. IF I were the baker, might want the center of town .. because the aromatics would be quite different and as all starting busness knows.. location location location...
The most trafficked businesses will be toward the center of the village, the less trafficked (or less pleasant) ones a bit farther out. For instance, the inn and blacksmith will be in the village center, and within spitting distance of each other. A baker, would be near the village center too. A butcher or tanner would be a bit farther out, as those businesses are a bit messy/smelly. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
jamesdglick finally mentioned the fact that Commoner is an NPC class in 3.x. I find it funny, looking over the level progression table, that a person could somehow attain 20th level in Commoner. ...
1) What do you mean, finally?! A survivable wood-wise 1st level Commoner was the first thing I mentioned to Sutemi!
I'm sorry I forgot that.
SirXaris
-For which I will never forgive you.
Or something like that...
Incidentally, is Sutemi convinced? Now to work on Ceb'. After that, Mystic-Scholar!
Dark_Lord_Galen wrote:
... caveat!!???!! LOL my favorite word!!! Well,,, uhummmm.. one "caveat to your caveat".....
Still doesn't mean Joe the 12th lvl commoner doesn't have em.. just means you have more RANKS than he does...
And as to commoners being 3rd world... hummm that is perspective.... when it comes to "ranks in skills" we hold important... maybe.... but that can be applied from the third world perspective as well. They have many applications and skills that are more value there for them than we would rank as important to us.
Example, in many parts of the world it is not necessary to drive an automobile. We (most anyway) in the States have many "ranks" in this skill. But even with these "ranks" they may not be as effective in a place where the rules of the road differ (anyone who has traveled overseas can attest to this). Did your ranks in driving change? no.... but you have established no ranks in their "world". If the example makes sense.
Further, in South America, there are MANY posionous creatures that are normal for the region yet we in the States know little to nothing about them, the precautions, and the treatment to exposure. Yet from "here" is that 3rd world? They have home brew remedies and modern advances too. its the culture.
-A Commoner is someone who didn't get much in the way of training or education.
Examples:
1) The typical Vietnamese peasant lived close to the jungle, but was scared to death of it, and had no idea how to survive in it (yes, the Viet Cong and NVA had to be taught to do that). The same goes for most medieval Europeans. Those are typical 1st and 2nd level Commoners with their feats and proficiencies dedicated to non-field crafty stuff. The various "Montgnards" (Hmong, etc) could make it in jungle; they're more like our Gambogers. They might be Commoners who have dedicated skills and feats to survival-type stuff, but their more likely to be Experts, Scouts, Rangers, or Rogues (Backwoods).
2) The typical "Arab" peasant hasn't much of a clue of how to live in the desert or deal with a camel, and they never did. The Bedouin, Taureg, and many Berbers do. Going further afield, the Apache certainly could. I'd say that most Arabs and Copts are Commoners, and the others are something else.
Cebrion wrote:
Yes, that 267 is total populace, not just adults, but this is for the village proper. There are few additional folks living on the fringes of the village. The numbers "100 males : 87 females : 80 children" is about right, but some of those "men" and "women" are teenagers. For our purposes, let us say that "children" are 13 and under, and "adults" are 14 and over...
-No argument. Anyone else?
Cebrion wrote:
One possible way for me to organize things is to lay out the number and type of locations, say how many people live at each, and then number them. For example:
Quote:
2. Small Inn
8-10 people + 1-3 renters; one story; partially stone, wattle, and daub building; basement; attic; attached building with small brewing operation, separate small stable(holds 4-6 horses) w/loft.
Whoever gets the location gets to flesh out the place in detail then.
-In most cases, it could probably be "who wants this?" Is anyone else really itching to do a grizzled 40-something or 50-something year old swineherd with a prize truffle hunting pig?
Cebrion wrote:
Quote:
47. Wattle and Daub Farmhouse
This simple farmhouse is home to a farmer, his wife, their two grown sons, and a huge, pitch black moor hound named Mephistopheles. They raise chickens and grow various vegetables (mostly squash), and have a milking cow. Buried just beneath the surface of a soon to be tilled plot is a phylactery containing the soul of the 36th level Neutral Evil Arch-Lich Shograh' Baal. The phylactery radiates no magic or evil, yet inspires covetousness in all who see it (save vs. spells to resist). The Arch-Lich will attempt to posses anybody who touches the phylactery (save vs. spells at -2 to resist).
So, just something simple like that for all of the entries that nobody volunteers for.
Opinions?
-Most the inhabitants have their origin in the Pale. Regardless of what they think of the Pale, they would probably use the naming system of their homeland. Most Palish names seem to be quasi-English, including quasi- Scandanavian (--burgh, etc.). Considering the original key features (woods, a trail, a smithy, a well, a stopping place, and "a large tree located near the center of the village, which the village children are encouraged to play about...", but no ford, bridge, lake, or stream) something like:
Most the inhabitants have their origin in the Pale. Regardless of what they think of the Pale, they would probably use the naming system of their homeland.
I think you miss your own "point."
As Cebrion noted in his population percentage table above -- and as is made manifest in "canon" -- the current occupants of The Pale originally fled the Great Kingdom. Those whom they absorbed, or displaced -- as is the case with the village -- were Flannae.
So, following your thought processes on the matter, the village name would be Flannae in nature/origin . . . not Palish.
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So, don't be too fixated on the Pholtan Gestapo angle of things, as that sort of presence, even considering later material, is going to be almost unheard of in what is essentially a neutral frontier area. The Pholtan Gestapo has plenty to attend to in the more populated areas of the Pale anyways. Doesn't mean that I won't include something like this in a "Rumors and Adventure Hooks" section though... 
) different opinions, and you can't please everyone. You have to draw the line somewhere.
I don't think I wiped out too much of anything fortunately.
No picture of a dragon or any other monster has ever inspired me to roll some dice as those pictures. It's time to save some villains! Excellent work!