Not ready to talk about Oerth in an Electric Universe perspective -- yet. But something caught my Eye that I want to work into my campaigns. That is the twin motif in Oeridian mythology.
I would like to work it into my home campaign. Now, I know I'm free to work ancient history of the Oeridians my way -- since the Oeridians probably forgot their ancient history except in myth and legend. Something from real history is worth mentioning, and that is an Empire in Southern India was founded by two brothers. Here's the link to the Fall of Civilizations video about it (Vijayanagara) in case you are interested.
So, yes, I would like to work it into my home game. Since my Play-by-post game is certainly short (I am only running Against the Cult of the Reptile God) I can explore mythology and legend in my home game. So, since I'm short of ideas at the moment, I'd thought to ask everyone if they have some ideas.
Historically, twins are a significant feature in Indo-European religions and myths. Think Castor and Pollux, Apollo and Artemis, or Romulus and Remus. I have been building out some anthropological thoughts on the original human ethnic groups, and the Oeridians do fit the bill, though I make their religious practices more like the civic religion of the Greeks and Romans, while the Suel followed something closer to a Mesopotamian religious style, the Bakluni the Ancient Persian, and the Old Faith looks more like Bhuddism... but this is getting off topic.
Note I say religious style, as in the way the gods are worshipped and portrayed. I rather like the idea of having differing religious customs in diferent regions, even for the same deity.
Heironeous and Hextor aren't expressly twins, and Chainmail's addition of Stratis (if you include him) further disrupts the idea, but hopefully you'll find Dargarth's articles generative.
Heironeous and Hextor aren't expressly twins, and Chainmail's addition of Stratis (if you include him) further disrupts the idea, but hopefully you'll find Dargarth's articles generative.
The sacred banders are based on the Sacred Band of Thebes, correct?
That just made me imagine homosexual relationships. Not a bad thing, of course, just a surprise. Hextor's priesthood would be predominately male, then. I wonder if Heironeous has sacred banders as well. Although in real life, a twin flame could either be male or female. (Mine was female by the way).
Among the sacred banders, they could be teaching that a sacred bander could be a twin flame to his mate. That they know each other and promised each other that they would be together in their time on Oerth.
Just speculation. It's unknown what Thebes taught their sacred band to justify their homosexual relationship (we know more about Sparta's approach than Thebes). Here's a thought: What if Hextor is thought of as evil because the priests of Heironeous think that some of the Hextorian priesthood are committing sin, and thus proclaim that Hextor is evil?
What if Heironeous and Hextor just have a sibling rivalry as to their approach to War? Heironeous could approach war from a Justified approach, Hextor approaches war from a necessary evil approach. What if Hextor is not evil, but is portrayed that way by the priesthood of Heironeous?
It could be that Hextor and Hieroneous are actually identical twins. And their rivalry is made up by one or the other's priesthood. I used to think of them as rivals in every way (thank you Deities and Demigods 3e, still a favorite book). However, thinking of the Sacred Banders of Hextor could mean that Hextor's priesthood is actually promoting love and connection as a way to promote cohesiveness among the troops. Not something a Lawful Evil god would do. So, this is strong evidence that Hextor might not be lawful evil after all.
Heironeous and Hextor aren't expressly twins, and Chainmail's addition of Stratis (if you include him) further disrupts the idea, but hopefully you'll find Dargarth's articles generative.
The sacred banders are based on the Sacred Band of Thebes, correct?
Also likely inspired by the Thieves World short stories penned by Janet Morris (who just passed away, alas).
Allan. _________________ Allan Grohe<br />https://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/greyhawk.html<br />https://grodog.blogspot.com/
Last edited by grodog on Fri Aug 16, 2024 6:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
It happens to the best of us. To everyone of us. I lost my dad recently to dehydration.
Anyway, I managed to get the Marklands, City of the Skulls, and Vecna Lives! just recently. Although frustratingly so. The Gord novels will have to wait, I'm afraid. They aren't released as pdfs.
Although, incidentally, what do you think of Hextor being Heironeous' identical twin? And having at least a neutral good alignment? He's only portrayed as evil by the Heironeous' priesthood.
Regarding your idea of applying the twin motif to Hextor and Heironeous, it seems to resonate well, and making the brothers twins instead of half-brothers seems like a minor change although it accentuates the question of their parentage. Do you use Stern Alia, and if so, is she their mother? Would the father be Procan, Pelor, or someone else?
Regarding your idea of Hextor being Neutral Good and Heironean propaganda to the contrary, it'll certainly make your Alternate Oerth highly distinctive! Because it squarely rejects the Lords of Evil aspect, which is foundational to how I think of Hextor, I admit I find it difficult to accept, but along the lines of Samwise's "New Canon," the new Visions of Greyhawk magazine, and the older idea of Alternate Oerths, I think you should pursue what most interests you.
At the same time, how does this change IYC the Great Kingdom of Aerdy? If Heironean (Nyrondal?) propaganda holds the Hextor is Lawful Evil, but he is actually Neutral Good, then how did that interact with the rise of House Naelex, which reportedly (per Carl Sargent's magisterial Ivid the Undying coincided with the shift in regnant religions in the See of Medegia (from Pholtus to Hextor)?
To me, the Lords of Evil angle, or perhaps more specifically Asmodeus or [insert your favorite archdevil] subverted the church of Hextor?
Mulling it over, if you make them twins, maybe they're both Lawful Neutral, and it's really the churches—per your earlier comments—that skew LG in Nyrond and Furyondy, etc. for Heironeous, and LE for Hextor in the Great Kingdom?
Thanks, mtg. My father died almost three years ago. I have a therapist to talk it over with. Yeah.
Quote:
Mulling it over, if you make them twins, maybe they're both Lawful Neutral, and it's really the churches—per your earlier comments—that skew LG in Nyrond and Furyondy, etc. for Heironeous, and LE for Hextor in the Great Kingdom?
Maybe. I like how the churches can sway opinions. Perhaps it's the Paladins that really know a part of the truth. No, they don't know all the truth (we even don't know all the truth). I like the problem to be political, yes.
My contention is that the existence of the Sacred Band(s) of Hextor (in the Great Kingdom and elsewhere) present a doctrinal problem for the Church of Hextor. If the Church pope really profess to speak for Hextor and expects Law and Order through domination, then why is there a Sacred Band of male warriors who are in love with each other? Love isn't about Domination of your partner. So, why is it apart of the Church of Hextor?
Just wait for a Paladin to be called by Hextor and not Hieroneous. Paladins are called, not made.
I've always assumed that H & H were twins, with Heironeous being slightly older.
Heironeous is LG because he rules by right of primogeniture. Order, Honor, and Justice are reflections of the idea that rule is derived from birthright and the mandate of law and social customs.
Hextor is LE because, as the younger brother, he has no right to rule from birth but had to claim or seize that right by force. War, discord, conflict, fitness, and tyranny are reflections of the idea that rule is derived from strength, and that those who are strong enough disrupt law and custom and then impose a new order based on their own will.
Within this context, the Heironeoun church would be neither for nor against homosexuality in terms of doctrine. But they would say that regardless of who one loves, it is the duty of rulers to marry heterosexually and produce heirs. One thing is your personal feelings, but another is state affairs and that requires marriage and children, regardless of your feelings toward your (arranged, not chosen) partner.
Heironeouns would regard Sacred Banding among Hextorians as evil (sinful) not because of homosexual love, or sex, but because of the refusal of the Banded to marry and sire children. This would be particularly sacrilegious if either or both of the partners in the band had inherited feudal estates themselves and by Banding they were thus attacking the institution of feudalism and primogeniture.
The Banded Hextorians might reject altogether the notion that they were obligated to have children, and instead choose to live and die as sworn warriors. Or, if they did want to raise children, they would adopt them. The highest offering to Hextor would be to adopt promising children who had been made orphans when the Banded themselves had slain their parents in combat. _________________ My campaigns are multilayered tapestries upon which I texture themes and subject matter which, quite frankly, would simply be too strong for your hobbyist gamer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Mp7Ikko8SI
I've always assumed that H & H were twins, with Heironeous being slightly older.
Heironeous is LG because he rules by right of primogeniture. Order, Honor, and Justice are reflections of the idea that rule is derived from birthright and the mandate of law and social customs.
Hextor is LE because, as the younger brother, he has no right to rule from birth but had to claim or seize that right by force. War, discord, conflict, fitness, and tyranny are reflections of the idea that rule is derived from strength, and that those who are strong enough disrupt law and custom and then impose a new order based on their own will.
Within this context, the Heironeoun church would be neither for nor against homosexuality in terms of doctrine. But they would say that regardless of who one loves, it is the duty of rulers to marry heterosexually and produce heirs. One thing is your personal feelings, but another is state affairs and that requires marriage and children, regardless of your feelings toward your (arranged, not chosen) partner.
Heironeouns would regard Sacred Banding among Hextorians as evil (sinful) not because of homosexual love, or sex, but because of the refusal of the Banded to marry and sire children. This would be particularly sacrilegious if either or both of the partners in the band had inherited feudal estates themselves and by Banding they were thus attacking the institution of feudalism and primogeniture.
The Banded Hextorians might reject altogether the notion that they were obligated to have children, and instead choose to live and die as sworn warriors. Or, if they did want to raise children, they would adopt them. The highest offering to Hextor would be to adopt promising children who had been made orphans when the Banded themselves had slain their parents in combat.
Primogeniture is something I haven't considered (I was thinking in terms of the early to middle Iron Age). This is good on the grounds of feudalism and primogeniture. I have to admit it's good. But it's still one sided, Kirt. You only described the Hieroneouns side, though. The Hextorans' side is only touched upon in the Hieroneouns side. Perhaps they are allowed to adopt children or foster children. Primogeniture would demand that the oldest adopted would inherit the estate.
I do not have Heironeous and Hextor as twins, but half-brothers.
Heironeous is the legitimate son of Arnd of Tdon and Johydee of the Mask.
Hextor is his illegitimate half-brother, the son of Arnd of Tdon and an unnamed half-orc servant woman who stole Johydee's Mask and used it to seduce Arnd. Similarities to Arthur and Mordred intended.
Hextor attempted to become king of Tdon after the passing of Arnd and Johydee but lost to Heironeous. Hextor left Tdon, crossing the Tyurzi Mountains and establishing a realm in the Sulhaut Mountains from which his followers fought the Baklunish and Suloise.
After several centuries, Heironeous was called to become the Champion of Weal and Hextor was summoned to become the Herald of Hell.
I see that domination is a feature in Hextorian religion. In my view, the Hextorian Sacred Band(s) is a contradiction to domination. I figure that the Hextorian church may be facing a schism soon. That could affect the Great Kingdom, but we'll see how Ivid handles it in a future campaign of mine.
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